(October 24, 2016 at 4:52 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 23, 2016 at 11:14 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Hi Lek, can you tell me how your faith is justified? As in, you say you believe this or that, and that it is at times specifically grounded in biblical facts. How are you sure that the faith you put on those beliefs are actually justified?

It just comes from his presence within me. I admit that I didn't just read the bible one day and decide that I believed, but rather that I was raised in the faith. I've been involved in this forum for almost three years and have been hit with every argument imaginable against my beliefs. Though I never seriously considered becoming and atheist, I did have thoughts of abandoning christianity in favor of just "general" theism, but I find that I believe the witness of biblical writers, like Paul, who were changed suddenly by their encounter with Christ. I would go to bed at night convinced that the bible was wrong and wake up the next morning filled with enthusiasm for Christ. I gave an example in another thread the other day about a stretching routine I've been doing for a long time that alleviates chronic pain from a mountain biking accident. I recently read that static stretching does little to no good and can even lead to muscle injury. Well, I know that it helps me, so it's hard to convince me not to stretch. The same here. If I experience God's Spirit within me, it validates what the bible is teaching. I guess I won't "know" for sure until I come face to face with him.

You've been here three years?! Have I been gone for that long haha. Sorry, where are my manners. I'll give you my background briefly:

I can relate to what you're saying. I was raised a non-practising catholic (Catholicism... let'a be honest) and then in my late teens had a lightbulb moment with the faith and that in turn made me become a Born Again Christian. And I know what you mean about these feelings we get in the pit of our stomach, and the goosebumps we feel when it really hits us how good He is. But what is the root of all that? I mean, so far we've only accounted for our own psyche, and that's not saying a lot. We get people saying a lot of things right? So what I'm asking is, how do you know your feelings are causally connected to the Creator and not just a "feel good" mentality? I know you mentioned Paul, but him seeing a light in the sky isn't exactly an encounter. It's only just a notch higher than feeling warm inside.

(October 24, 2016 at 8:59 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 24, 2016 at 6:24 pm)abaris Wrote: Yeh, we were there before. Some 18 months ago. The part where you were at a loss explaining how an immortal god of the trinity can make a sacrifice for a sin he himself created.

The point is moot. More than moot. An immortal and eternal being can't die. So, subscribing to the trinity, you probably have the same hard time coming up with an explanation how this should be called a sacrifice.

Because Jesus was a mortal human being and he did die. According to the doctrine of the trinity Jesus is God and man. I don't think you were discussing this with me because I would have told you that God didn't create sin. He did create beings with the capacity to sin.

I tend to see the trinity etc. as a sort of electrical circuit, and it's one that short circuits. Yes, God created the problem. Which means God then forgives himself by sacrificing himself to himself, so that he no longer has the problem that he created himself. Now, where do we enter the picture? There is no meaningful flow between him and us. It just revolves around his doings, and we're on the sideline.

(October 24, 2016 at 9:22 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(October 24, 2016 at 8:59 pm)Lek Wrote: Because Jesus was a mortal human being and he did die.  According to the doctrine of the trinity Jesus is God and man.  I don't think you were discussing this with me because I would have told you that God didn't create sin.  He did create beings with the capacity to sin.

I tend to see the trinity etc. as a sort of electrical circuit, and it's one that short circuits. Yes, God created the problem. Which means God then forgives himself by sacrificing himself to himself, so that he no longer has the problem that he created himself. Now, where do we enter the picture? There is no meaningful flow between him and us. It just revolves around his doings, and we're on the sideline.

Aren't we the ones who sinned and the ones who need to be freed from death? The atonement was all for us. God never sinned, so there was no need to atone for himself.

(October 24, 2016 at 9:10 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(October 24, 2016 at 4:52 pm)Lek Wrote: It just comes from his presence within me.  I admit that I didn't just read the bible one day and decide that I believed, but rather that I was raised in the faith.  I've been involved in this forum for almost three years and have been hit with every argument imaginable against my beliefs.  Though I never seriously considered becoming and atheist, I did have thoughts of abandoning christianity in favor of just "general" theism, but I find that I believe the witness of biblical writers, like Paul, who were changed suddenly by their encounter with Christ.  I would go to bed at night convinced that the bible was wrong and wake up the next morning filled with enthusiasm for Christ.  I gave an example in another thread the other day about a stretching routine I've been doing for a long time that alleviates chronic pain from a mountain biking accident.  I recently read that static stretching does little to no good and can even lead to muscle injury.  Well, I know that it helps me, so it's hard to convince me not to stretch.  The same here.  If I experience God's Spirit within me, it validates what the bible is teaching.  I guess I won't "know" for sure until I come face to face with him.

You've been here three years?! Have I been gone for that long haha. Sorry, where are my manners. I'll give you my background briefly:

I can relate to what you're saying. I was raised a non-practising catholic (Catholicism... let'a be honest) and then in my late teens had a lightbulb moment with the faith and that in turn made me become a Born Again Christian. And I know what you mean about these feelings we get in the pit of our stomach, and the goosebumps we feel when it really hits us how good He is. But what is the root of all that? I mean, so far we've only accounted for our own psyche, and that's not saying a lot. We get people saying a lot of things right? So what I'm asking is, how do you know your feelings are causally connected to the Creator and not just a "feel good" mentality? I know you mentioned Paul, but him seeing a light in the sky isn't exactly an encounter. It's only just a notch higher than feeling warm inside.

Truth is I don't know 100% for sure. I'm making my choice based on where I'm being led. Like I said, I've strongly considered letting it go, but there's nothing else for me to go to. I think God has led me to where I am. By the way I was a practicing catholic most of my life and I let that go, so it's not a matter of me not being able to take that step to move on if I believe it's warranted.

(October 24, 2016 at 10:10 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 24, 2016 at 9:10 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: You've been here three years?! Have I been gone for that long haha. Sorry, where are my manners. I'll give you my background briefly:

I can relate to what you're saying. I was raised a non-practising catholic (Catholicism... let'a be honest) and then in my late teens had a lightbulb moment with the faith and that in turn made me become a Born Again Christian. And I know what you mean about these feelings we get in the pit of our stomach, and the goosebumps we feel when it really hits us how good He is. But what is the root of all that? I mean, so far we've only accounted for our own psyche, and that's not saying a lot. We get people saying a lot of things right? So what I'm asking is, how do you know your feelings are causally connected to the Creator and not just a "feel good" mentality? I know you mentioned Paul, but him seeing a light in the sky isn't exactly an encounter. It's only just a notch higher than feeling warm inside.

Truth is I don't know 100% for sure. I'm making my choice based on where I'm being led. Like I said, I've strongly considered letting it go, but there's nothing else for me to go to. I think God has led me to where I am. By the way I was a practicing catholic most of my life and I let that go, so it's not a matter of me not being able to take that step to move on if I believe it's warranted.

If you yourself don't know how your belief is justified, then what have you been telling people here for three years? Until you can go from A to B through reason, all you have is an isolated case for what you believe in with no adequate argument to offer to anyone else.

(October 24, 2016 at 10:00 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 24, 2016 at 9:22 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I tend to see the trinity etc. as a sort of electrical circuit, and it's one that short circuits. Yes, God created the problem. Which means God then forgives himself by sacrificing himself to himself, so that he no longer has the problem that he created himself. Now, where do we enter the picture? There is no meaningful flow between him and us. It just revolves around his doings, and we're on the sideline.

Aren't we the ones who sinned and the ones who need to be freed from death? The atonement was all for us. God never sinned, so there was no need to atone for himself.

"We" didn't sin. God created the conditions for A&E to eventually sin without knowing what they had done, because only through the tree could they hold the ability to know. It's like being accused of breaking a law without being taught what the legal system is. Once again, that's God's slip up.

(October 24, 2016 at 10:23 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(October 24, 2016 at 10:10 pm)Lek Wrote: Truth is I don't know 100% for sure.  I'm making my choice based on where I'm being led.  Like I said, I've strongly considered letting it go, but there's nothing else for me to go to.  I think God has led me to where I am.  By the way I was a practicing catholic most of my life and I let that go, so it's not a matter of me not being able to take that step to move on if I believe it's warranted.

If you yourself don't know how your belief is justified, then what have you been telling people here for three years? Until you can go from A to B through reason, all you have is an isolated case for what you believe in with no adequate argument to offer to anyone else.

I believe that the bible is true and is justification for my belief. I'm not 100% sure of anything. I've never made a choice in my life, such as getting married or what career to pursue, in which I was 100% sure. We must make decisions on which way to go and then go for it, or else we'll just keep wallowing. I don't want to be on my deathbed and still be hem hawing around about a decision that effects eternity. I've considered the evidence and opened myself to God's leading and decided to follow him. I believe that anyone who says that they are have no doubts about any life decision is probably being dishonest.

(October 24, 2016 at 10:27 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(October 24, 2016 at 10:00 pm)Lek Wrote: Aren't we the ones who sinned and the ones who need to be freed from death?  The atonement was all for us.  God never sinned, so there was no need to atone for himself.

"We" didn't sin. God created the conditions for A&E to eventually sin without knowing what they had done, because only through the tree could they hold the ability to know. It's like being accused of breaking a law without being taught what the legal system is. Once again, that's God's slip up.

Of course Adam and Eve knew that they would be offending God if they ate of the fruit of that tree. It's not that they didn't have the ability to know that they should obey God. You have to give the writer of Genesis credit for having some smarts. Do really think that the story is portraying God as setting up Adam and Eve? He made it clear. "Read my lips. Don't eat from the fruit of that tree." I can picture Adam saying to Eve: "Duh. God said not to eat this, but he didn't teach us to know evil, so I guess it's alright." When they disobeyed God, then they obtained knowledge of the effects of evil. You need to consider what the writer was trying to relate through the story.

Christian approach to the Bible:

(October 25, 2016 at 3:23 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: Christian approach to the Bible:

Atheists love to use a wooden literal translation, rather what it's really saying, to try to discredit it. Hopefully the readers are smarter than you.