(October 10, 2016 at 6:26 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 10, 2016 at 6:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -and when they don't...but there is no other, meaningful, objection?  When they are good people who do good things...what....then?

We must accept that we are sinners and need to be covered by the sacrifice of Christ.  This is true no matter what religion we are or whether we have read the bible and know what his biblical name is.  If we try to be the best and most and most moral person in the world, we will do many goods deeds, but we will not be with God for eternity.

I "must" not accept anything of the sort.

Even if, in the asymptotically infinitesimal chances that your myth, as you state it above, is fact, it is still immoral.

And since I do not want any part of your gods immoral deal, I would not accept it, even if it was true.

Punishing all of humanity for his mistake in putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden with people who would not understand it was wrong. Immoral.

Punishing all of their offspring in perpetuity for the 'sins' of their parents. Immoral.

Substitutionary atonement. Immoral.

Punishing people for eternity for not being gullible enough to believe he exists. Immoral.

Here's a question for you...

Why couldn't god just have forgiven humanity without the sacrifice, the belief in unevidenced stories, the eternal worship, the need of faith, etc?

I have the ability to forgive the drunk driver that killed my dog when I was a teen, without anything in recompense from the driver. Why am I able to do something that your god seemingly is unable to do?

You know...I distinctly remember being shanked by a a kid named Ron when I was in grade school.  It was wrong done to me, for which absolutely no impetus was given.  Sure, sure, I retailiated by hospitalizing him with my spelling book.  I didn't handle it well...I was a child.  But, many years later, as teens...we found ourselves working at th same Mc-y D';s.  He didn't like me.  I still didn't like him, or his stupid face..he still had a scar over his eye from the spelling book....but I never pushed him into the hot grease on account of what he did to me.  I'd be willing to guess he has children, now...and If I ever did fantasize about pushing Ron into hot grease...which I won't rule out, I've never fantasized about doing so to a hypothetical Ron Jr.

Maybe someone ought to relate that story to the christer god...who seems to have missed something about morality, at the level of grade schoolers.

(October 10, 2016 at 7:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(October 10, 2016 at 6:26 pm)Lek Wrote: We must accept that we are sinners and need to be covered by the sacrifice of Christ.  This is true no matter what religion we are or whether we have read the bible and know what his biblical name is.  If we try to be the best and most and most moral person in the world, we will do many goods deeds, but we will not be with God for eternity.

I "must" not accept anything of the sort.

Even if, in the asymptotically infinitesimal chances that your myth, as you state it above, is fact, it is still immoral.

And since I do not want any part of your gods immoral deal, I would not accept it, even if it was true.

Punishing all of humanity for his mistake in putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden with people who would not understand it was wrong. Immoral.

Punishing all of their offspring in perpetuity for the 'sins' of their parents. Immoral.

Substitutionary atonement. Immoral.

Punishing people for eternity for not being gullible enough to believe he exists. Immoral.

Here's a question for you...

Why couldn't god just have forgiven humanity without the sacrifice, the belief in unevidenced stories, the eternal worship, the need of faith, etc?

I have the ability to  forgive the drunk driver that killed my dog when I was a teen, without anything in recompense from the driver. Why am I able to do something that your god seemingly is unable to do?

He has forgiven us all. The question is do we want to accept him and his forgiveness. Do we want to be with him or not?

Here again, you seem to be...misrepresenting...your god. How big of him, I suppose...to "forgive" all those he's slaughtered, in any case?

(hopefully you already know -my- answer to the desperate pleading above....no, I don't want to be with -you-. There is no god involved.)

(October 10, 2016 at 7:17 pm)Lek Wrote:

(October 10, 2016 at 7:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I "must" not accept anything of the sort.

Even if, in the asymptotically infinitesimal chances that your myth, as you state it above, is fact, it is still immoral.

And since I do not want any part of your gods immoral deal, I would not accept it, even if it was true.

Punishing all of humanity for his mistake in putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden with people who would not understand it was wrong. Immoral.

Punishing all of their offspring in perpetuity for the 'sins' of their parents. Immoral.

Substitutionary atonement. Immoral.

Punishing people for eternity for not being gullible enough to believe he exists. Immoral.

Here's a question for you...

Why couldn't god just have forgiven humanity without the sacrifice, the belief in unevidenced stories, the eternal worship, the need of faith, etc?

I have the ability to  forgive the drunk driver that killed my dog when I was a teen, without anything in recompense from the driver. Why am I able to do something that your god seemingly is unable to do?

He has forgiven us all.  The question is do we want to accept him and his forgiveness.  Do we want to be with him or not?

You didn't get close to answering my question.

You avoided it, then preached.

(October 10, 2016 at 7:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I "must" not accept anything of the sort.

If you are to have salvation then you must, otherwise yo don't have to do anything.

Quote:Even if, in the asymptotically infinitesimal chances that your myth, as you state it above, is fact, it is still immoral.

I don't think it's immoral, but either way it doesn't determine whether or not exists.

Quote:And since I do not want any part of your gods immoral deal, I would not accept it, even if it was true.

I can't argue that point with you.

Quote:Punishing all of humanity for his mistake in putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden with people who would not understand it was wrong. Immoral.

Punishing all of their offspring in perpetuity for the 'sins' of their parents. Immoral.

Substitutionary atonement. Immoral.

Punishing people for eternity for not being gullible enough to believe he exists. Immoral.


We could argue the rest of our lives about these things are immoral.

I acknowledge that you think these things are immoral from your world. From the perspective of a life that is eternal I don't agree. I also don't believe that he sends us to hell for eternity and I believe that from a biblical standpoint.

Quote:Why couldn't god just have forgiven humanity without the sacrifice, the belief in unevidenced stories, the eternal worship, the need of faith, etc?

Too much for one post. Why don't you just hit me with one "gotcha" question and I'll answer in detail. Gotta go.

Hi Lek, can you tell me how your faith is justified? As in, you say you believe this or that, and that it is at times specifically grounded in biblical facts. How are you sure that the faith you put on those beliefs are actually justified?

(October 23, 2016 at 11:14 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Hi Lek, can you tell me how your faith is justified? As in, you say you believe this or that, and that it is at times specifically grounded in biblical facts. How are you sure that the faith you put on those beliefs are actually justified?

It just comes from his presence within me. I admit that I didn't just read the bible one day and decide that I believed, but rather that I was raised in the faith. I've been involved in this forum for almost three years and have been hit with every argument imaginable against my beliefs. Though I never seriously considered becoming and atheist, I did have thoughts of abandoning christianity in favor of just "general" theism, but I find that I believe the witness of biblical writers, like Paul, who were changed suddenly by their encounter with Christ. I would go to bed at night convinced that the bible was wrong and wake up the next morning filled with enthusiasm for Christ. I gave an example in another thread the other day about a stretching routine I've been doing for a long time that alleviates chronic pain from a mountain biking accident. I recently read that static stretching does little to no good and can even lead to muscle injury. Well, I know that it helps me, so it's hard to convince me not to stretch. The same here. If I experience God's Spirit within me, it validates what the bible is teaching. I guess I won't "know" for sure until I come face to face with him.

(October 10, 2016 at 7:17 pm)Lek Wrote: He has forgiven us all.  The question is do we want to accept him and his forgiveness.  Do we want to be with him or not?

Yeh, we were there before. Some 18 months ago. The part where you were at a loss explaining how an immortal god of the trinity can make a sacrifice for a sin he himself created.

The point is moot. More than moot. An immortal and eternal being can't die. So, subscribing to the trinity, you probably have the same hard time coming up with an explanation how this should be called a sacrifice.

(October 24, 2016 at 6:24 pm)abaris Wrote:

(October 10, 2016 at 7:17 pm)Lek Wrote: He has forgiven us all.  The question is do we want to accept him and his forgiveness.  Do we want to be with him or not?

Yeh, we were there before. Some 18 months ago. The part where you were at a loss explaining how an immortal god of the trinity can make a sacrifice for a sin he himself created.

The point is moot. More than moot. An immortal and eternal being can't die. So, subscribing to the trinity, you probably have the same hard time coming up with an explanation how this should be called a sacrifice.

Because Jesus was a mortal human being and he did die. According to the doctrine of the trinity Jesus is God and man. I don't think you were discussing this with me because I would have told you that God didn't create sin. He did create beings with the capacity to sin.