As long as Donald Trump doesn't become president.

(October 31, 2016 at 1:50 pm)ReptilianPeon Wrote: Also could be something in this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar-Turkey_pipeline
and this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline
Both oil pipelines want to pass through Syria.

I doubt it. So long as Syria and Iraq are torn by strife, the only thing such projects represent are fat, juicy targets. And even after Assad wins, Syria is going to be a very violent place ... for at least a generation.

(November 1, 2016 at 7:52 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 7:33 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: The point at which you start saying no to abortions (with the important caveat that the life of the mother is still more important than the potential life of the foetus) is at the point where there's a reasonable chance of viability outside the womb. And that is still 24 weeks or so, the cut off point under UK legislation. Anything after that should need both the wishes of the mother and a genuine medical reason (and I consider suicidal ideation as genuine).

But depression/suicidal ideation can be treated.  Would it really be wise to let a woman make a decision like that while she is not mentally/emotionally sound?  What are the risks of the psychological trauma this would cause if she regrets her decision after getting well?   Much like women who harm their babies while suffering PPD; we wouldn't consider those decisions that of a rational, psychologically healthy person.

Another case in Ireland, an (19 year old) asylum seeker was locked in a mental hospital because she was at serious risk of committing suicide because she was carrying a foetus as a result of rape back home (or during her journey, a lot of the details were in camera) so that she could be forced to carry to term. She had no legal way to get to the UK for an abortion (official number of annual abortions in the UK by Irish women is over 4,000 but NHS England reckon the number in England alone is 50% or more higher).

That's what happens when anti abortion regimes are in place, any thought for the righs or health of the woman go out the window. My advice to the likes of Catholic Lady and other anti aborts is "if you don't like abortions, don't have any. Don't impose your dogma on others".

(November 1, 2016 at 7:33 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(October 31, 2016 at 9:35 pm)abaris Wrote: I'm also pro choice, but - depending on what late time means - I don't agree. There's a point when an organism seizes to be just a collection of cells and develops senses. That's where I draw the line outside of life threatening conditions.

The point at which you start saying no to abortions (with the important caveat that the life of the mother is still more important than the potential life of the foetus) is at the point where there's a reasonable chance of viability outside the womb. And that is still 24 weeks or so, the cut off point under UK legislation. Anything after that should need both the wishes of the mother and a genuine medical reason (and I consider suicidal ideation as genuine).

As I said though, "genuine medical reasons" can be subjective depending on the abortionist. That's the problem. Some abortionists will do late term abortions for any reason. In some states, an 8 month pregnant woman could walk in and say she no longer wants the baby and claim mental health reasons for it, and the abortionist can consider that "genuine medical reasons" and go through with the abortion. Also as I said, late term abortions are not an immediate necessity to save a mother's life. If the pregnancy is causing life threatening problems for the mom, such as preeclampsia or eclampsia, inducing labor and C section can be done instead to get the baby out - saving the mom while still giving the baby a chance of survival. Or at least sparing him/her from what would otherwise be an extremely painful, violent death. 

Late abortions often involve cutting the baby up into pieces and crushing his/her skull so that the remains are small enough to be extracted out. They can feel pain at this point. Can you imagine the pain of being killed by having your arms and legs cut off before getting your skull crushed? This is a horrible, horrible thing. Hillary is a vehement supporter of late term abortion on the basis of "women's rights" and I cannot stand behind her partially for that reason. 

My older sister was conceived when my mom was only 19 and the father was abusive and a drug dealer. Many people in my family at that time wanted my mom to abort her, including my grandfather who tried to force my mom into an abortion. My aunt (the only religious one in the family at that time) was the only person who fought for my sister's life and supported my pregnant mom when others in the family wouldn't. My sister is now 36 years old, a feminist to boot, and extremely pro life. She laughs at the notion that abortion is a "woman's right" when she, a woman, almost had her most basic fundamental human right taken away.

Forcing a woman to give birth, when it puts her life in danger is absolutely fucking abhorrent. Every woman should have a say over her own healthcare. To say otherwise is pretty indefensible.

Divinity Wrote:Forcing a woman to give birth, when it puts her life in danger is absolutely fucking abhorrent.  Every woman should have a say over her own healthcare.  To say otherwise is pretty indefensible.

Quite literally 'forced labor'. Women have been imprisoned to ensure they give birth.

(November 1, 2016 at 10:17 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: And even after Assad wins, Syria is going to be a very violent place ... for at least a generation.

You and me are old enough to remember the Lebanese civil war. It's something like that. With foreign powers mingling. After all sides are entirely dried out, they will find some kind of peace agreement. Not anitime sooner.

(November 1, 2016 at 11:16 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(November 1, 2016 at 7:52 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: But depression/suicidal ideation can be treated.  Would it really be wise to let a woman make a decision like that while she is not mentally/emotionally sound?  What are the risks of the psychological trauma this would cause if she regrets her decision after getting well?   Much like women who harm their babies while suffering PPD; we wouldn't consider those decisions that of a rational, psychologically healthy person.

Another case in Ireland, an  (19 year old) asylum seeker was locked in a mental hospital because she was at serious risk of committing suicide because she was carrying a foetus as a result of rape back home (or during her journey, a lot of the details were in camera) so that she could be forced to carry to term. She had no legal way to get to the UK for an abortion (official number of annual abortions in the UK by Irish women is over 4,000 but NHS England reckon the number in England alone is 50% or more higher).

That's what happens when anti abortion regimes are in place, any thought for the righs or health of the woman go out the window. My advice to the likes of Catholic Lady and other anti aborts is "if you don't like abortions, don't have any. Don't impose your dogma on others".

My bold. That would be all fine and dandy if abortion was a victimless act. The problem is when something involves killing someone else, it no longer becomes a matter of "Don't like it? Don't do it." 

I'm not saying pregnant women in peril shouldn't be treated with the utmost compassion, and society should do everything it can to take care of these women. But killing another human is just not the right answer.

Apparently there are anti-abortionists who think 'let them both die' is a better answer than 'save the mother'.

Funny how the Clinton "email controversy" is so big that this thread is now about abortion....

But anyway, the problem arises for people on any side of this issue that outlawing abortions does almost nothing to reduce them.  It does nothing to save lives, and only risks more lives.  This is a fact.
If you wish women to have less abortions, the answer is more access to birth control, especially for poorer people, and more education. These are the only methods that are proven to reduce abortions.

So, if you are pro-life, stop wasting your time trying to ban abortions. Much like banning drugs, it just drives the the service into the black market, but does not reduce rates of unwanted behavior.  Start spending time making access to Planned Parenthoood and other women's health clinics GREATER, so more women don't have unwanted pregnancies in the first place. If you make abortions illegal, it also makes it so less women have access to to education and birth control and DRIVES ABORTION RATES UP.

The places with the highest rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion are the places where it is the most difficult to access (except for eastern europe, where birth control is illegal but abortion is not, what an effed up place!!).  
I know it seems counter-intuitive, but a lot of things work this way.  Make them illegal, and they get worse. Bring them into the light and educate people and help PREVENT the problem in the first place.