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RE: Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity
November 20, 2016 at 12:15 pm (This post was last modified: November 20, 2016 at 12:21 pm by The Joker.)
(November 20, 2016 at 11:58 am)Rhythm Wrote:
(November 20, 2016 at 9:21 am)The Joker Wrote: Christianit,y on Morality: Morality is objective Atheism on Morality: Morality is subjective
Atheism is not a position on the status of morality. Christianity's claims regarding morality are just that, claims.
Quote:Greatest Role model’s for Christianity: Jesus, Mary and the apostles, the martyrs of faith and saints. Greatest Role model’s for Atheism: Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Napoleon and Jim Jones.
Hehehe, Jim Jones....an atheist role model, you think? Honestly none of the people you listed above are role models in my opinion, for either "side".
Quote:True Christian Family: Family hierarchy the husband the head, children properly disciplined and brought up in the Christian order, Children obey parents and daily worship and pray and visits to church. Peace at home. No divorce rates in a true Christian family. The Atheistic Family: No family hierarchy but democracy where everyone rules, husband not the head, no family order, no family discipline children rebelling against parents, husbands and wives quarrelling often, wife not obeying & husband not listening. Divorce rates extremely high, moral standards very low-morality is subjective. No peace in the family. Envies against one another.
I think you're ignoring the huge number of christian housholds in which the wife wears the pants and her feckless husband is unable to corral their coke addled spawn. You got the relationship between faith and divorce rates entirely wrong, it's the bible thumpers running off with the nanny and the manny at an astonishing rate. Can't say I blame them, I couldn't live my life with a dedicated thumper either. Those people are insufferable.
Quote:The Atheist agenda: Self-Righteous, Very high egoticism, Pride is essentially self-worship. Anything we accomplish in this world would not have been possible were it not for God enabling and sustaining us. (Admitting sin and acknowledging that in our own strength we can do nothing to inherit eternal life is a constant stumbling block for prideful people.) Christianity: To Accomplish God’s will daily, always ready to repent when sinned, striving for humility and meekness. To the carry the cross.
There is no atheist agenda. Atheism is a statement regarding one's status of belief concerning gods, nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:Why Atheists have still not found God: They aren’t looking and second they want to avoid him. Just assuming the God of the Bible is evil without reading within context or based on what other people think.
Atheists have better things to do than to worry about gods they don;t believe in. Things like keeping their marriages from imploding, for example.
Quote:Main fundamental doctrine of Atheism: The denial of God through lack of belief, Core foundation is self will and trusting in the theory of evolution.
There is no doctrine of atheism, foundational or otherwise. It;s just a term for people who don;t believe in gods.
Quote:True Christian Thoughts: God created everything, no evolution, myths can’t be accepted as facts.
Some christians truly think that, granted.
Quote:What atheism has done for humanity: Godless homes, The blurring away of sexual morality now LGBT in society and Genocide: Pol Pot (Cambodia): 1,700,000 people killed, Atheistic Hitler Killed (Germany): 12,000,000, Atheistic Stalin Killed (Russia): 35,000,000 killed, Mao Zedong (China): 100,000,000+ killed
Not sure how atheism did any of that. Atheism doesn;t do anything, it;s just a statement regarding beliefs, for the umpteenth time.
Quote:What Christianity has done for humanity: Laws that required justice among all people. (Before this, power and oppression ruled.) Laws that required providing for the feeding of the poor by leaving grains and produce for the poor in the fields.(Law of Moses) Dietary laws instituted hygeine at a time when few practiced it. Christianity is the force behind fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age. Christianity is the basis of our jurisprudence, economics, and owning property. Christian first ever Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages. Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the world’s greatest universities were started for Christian purposes. The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in more modern times, Equal in dignity for Men and Women as they are both in God’s Images however different roles and etc.
Laws, fairness, charity, equality, these things all precede christianity and christianity has often found itself to be an obstruction to each and every one.
Quote:Evidence for God: The Kalam Cosmological Argument, The Ontological Argument, The Moral Argument,
Those are arguments, not evidence.
Quote:Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible,Biblical Manuscripts, the historical accuracy of the Bible
This is fantasy, fiction, and fantasy fiction.....respectively.
Quote:Christianity based on: Faith and Reason
As a christian, you really shouldn;t get this one wrong. Christianity is based upon the belief espoused in the new testament that christ died for your sins.
Quote:Atheism based on: Feelings, self will for example why won’t God do it my way and Ignorance of reason, trusting in pseudo science like Biological evolution.
There were atheists long before the theory of evolution, in fact there were atheists long before christianity as well. It really doesn't have anything to do with your god in particular, and never has.
Quote:A)Prove Naturalistic Evolution to be true and you take out God's existence because this shows a natural explanation of how everything came into existence without the assistance of the supernatural.
B)Take out Naturalistic Evolution and the existence of God is automatically Proven.
I'm afraid that's not how it works. No amount of the other guy being wrong will ever make you right.
Quote:A):We came here by an accident without true meaning or purpose, but we are just some random living organism in space, Or
B):God created us with a meaning and purpose to life, not including our private wants.
We didn't "come here" at all, we've always been here. We have never been anywhere else, our being here can hardly be described as accidental, nor can we be described as random organisms.
Quote:A) Is there convincing evidence for Naturalistic Evolution?
or
B) Is there convincing evidence against Naturalistic Evolution?
There's a reason it's called a theory, and not just a hypothesis.
You are rolling in my rotary wheel dilemma. True atheism is just one's status of belief concerning gods, nothing more, nothing less. My point is, how those beliefs effects the individual.
You are rolling in my rotary wheel dilemma.
Quote:A)Prove Naturalistic Evolution to be true and you take out God's existence because this shows a natural explanation of how everything came into existence without the assistance of the supernatural.
B)Take out Naturalistic Evolution and the existence of God is automatically Proven.
I'm afraid that's not how it works. No amount of the other guy being wrong will ever make you right.
Again, I appreciate your point, but I am having trouble accepting that common argument from atheists, when getting deep into the cosmological argument "It doesn't mean God did it, so I lack belief in God".
The problem I see.
If it can be proven that we didn't come here by an accident by mindless dumb evolution without meaning or purpose, then we obviously know God did it, But the atheist may say "BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN GOD DID IT Just because we didn't come here by an accident through chance of evolution!" Well in that case if you prefer not to use the term "God," you may simply call him/it: "The Extremely Powerful, Uncaused, Necessarily Existing, Non-Contingent, Non-Physical, Immaterial, Eternal Being Who Created the Entire Universe...And Everything In It." With a meaning and a purpose to life.
But above all, There is really anything I can do with people who will ignore the truth and deliberately twist the meanings.
(November 20, 2016 at 11:56 am)Chad32 Wrote:
(November 20, 2016 at 11:44 am)The Joker Wrote: I don't find anything wrong with what God did in the Old testament. God was good in the Old testament. You need to read it in context.
Remember, for the atheist, humans are just accidents of nature – highly evolved animals. But animals have no moral obligations to one another. When a cat kills a mouse, it hasn’t done anything morally wrong. The cat’s just being a cat. If God doesn’t exist then we should view human behavior in the same way. No action should be considered morally right or wrong.
But the problem is – good and bad, right and wrong do exist! Just as our sense experience convinces us that the physical world is objectively real, our moral experience convinces us that moral values are objectively real. Every time you say, “Hey, that’s not fair! That’s wrong! That’s an injustice!” you affirm your belief in the existence of objective morals.
Well if you see nothing wrong in the old testament, then we're probably not going to come to an agreement here. There's not much I can say on morality if our thinking is that divergent.
We are animals. We have a moral obligation to our people because we're social animals. we need each other for long, healthy lives. There are instances of people living off in the woods by themselves, but generally it's a much riskier situation. Especially if you live in an area with large predators. Morality comes about because we are social animals that need rules in order to coexist.
As far as right or wrong, we obviously have an example of how different people's views on that can be. I find the majority of the bible deplorable, while you just say I need to read it "in context", and act as if your god is good by definition. Why should we think he is good, anyway? Because he says he is?
There are no objective morals, and this is proven by the fact that people right on this message board can talk so passionately from opposite sides of major issues. A person's morals can change with age, given new information. Mine changed as I grew up, and left the church. Someone's can change as they grow up to become religious. Morality is flexible.
Was the atheist Joseph Stalin wrong for killing over 42 million people in the 1900s? If so, why? If not, why not?
In atheism, if you say rape is wrong because it harms someone, why is harm the standard of morality?
If you believe something is morally wrong (like rape), "ought" you do something about it and impose your value on others? If you "ought" to impose your moral value on others (like stoping a rape), what gives you the moral right to do that? Do you believe that the subjective opinions of a society offer proper basis for morality?
If you say that reducing harm is a valid standard of morality because that is what people want, then how are you not promoting an arbitrary standard since it is based on peoples’ feelings and desires which change?
RE: Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity
November 20, 2016 at 12:24 pm
Is that really a common argument, though? I'm a lifelong atheist and the closest I've ever heard or used is "I don't believe these claims - convince me that your god did it".
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
RE: Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity
November 20, 2016 at 12:37 pm
(November 20, 2016 at 12:24 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Is that really a common argument, though? I'm a lifelong atheist and the closest I've ever heard or used is "I don't believe these claims - convince me that your god did it".
Again, I appreciate your point, but I am having trouble accepting that common argument from atheists, when getting deep into the cosmological argument "It doesn't mean God did it, so I lack belief in God".
The problem I see.
If it can be proven that we didn't come here by an accident by mindless dumb evolution without meaning or purpose, then we obviously know God did it, But the atheist may say "BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN GOD DID IT Just because we didn't come here by an accident through chance of evolution!" Well in that case if you prefer not to use the term "God," you may simply call him/it: "The Extremely Powerful, Uncaused, Necessarily Existing, Non-Contingent, Non-Physical, Immaterial, Eternal Being Who Created the Entire Universe...And Everything In It." With a meaning and a purpose to life.
RE: Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity
November 20, 2016 at 12:39 pm
(November 20, 2016 at 12:15 pm)The Joker Wrote:
(November 20, 2016 at 11:56 am)Chad32 Wrote: Well if you see nothing wrong in the old testament, then we're probably not going to come to an agreement here. There's not much I can say on morality if our thinking is that divergent.
We are animals. We have a moral obligation to our people because we're social animals. we need each other for long, healthy lives. There are instances of people living off in the woods by themselves, but generally it's a much riskier situation. Especially if you live in an area with large predators. Morality comes about because we are social animals that need rules in order to coexist.
As far as right or wrong, we obviously have an example of how different people's views on that can be. I find the majority of the bible deplorable, while you just say I need to read it "in context", and act as if your god is good by definition. Why should we think he is good, anyway? Because he says he is?
There are no objective morals, and this is proven by the fact that people right on this message board can talk so passionately from opposite sides of major issues. A person's morals can change with age, given new information. Mine changed as I grew up, and left the church. Someone's can change as they grow up to become religious. Morality is flexible.
Was the atheist Joseph Stalin wrong for killing over 42 million people in the 1900s? If so, why? If not, why not?
In atheism, if you say rape is wrong because it harms someone, why is harm the standard of morality?
If you believe something is morally wrong (like rape), "ought" you do something about it and impose your value on others? If you "ought" to impose your moral value on others (like stoping a rape), what gives you the moral right to do that? Do you believe that the subjective opinions of a society offer proper basis for morality?
If you say that reducing harm is a valid standard of morality because that is what people want, then how are you not promoting an arbitrary standard since it is based on peoples’ feelings and desires which change?
I guess it depends on the context, huh? Because apparently mass murder can be justified, depending on who does it?
I don't like it when people harm me. Therefore I should agree that harming others is wrong. It's one of the most basic fundamentals of right and wrong. Though apparently even that can change, depending on where you are. Hence the recent story of a woman being arrested after she reported a rape.
If I know something wrong is happening, and have the power to stop it, I should. Otherwise I'm partially responsible for it happening. But again, what is right and wrong can vary from group to group, so it's not a very simple problem. There's no one size fits all solution, which is why societies often change over time. If something doesn't change, it becomes obsolete, which is a problem when you flot the idea of an unchanging god.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
RE: Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity
November 20, 2016 at 12:48 pm
(November 20, 2016 at 9:21 am)The Joker Wrote: I think Atheist forum should be place where everyone can get right deep into atheist thinking and examine them for study. To be honest I Just don’t think Atheism is better than the Christian standard, now before you go on about how I am an idiot and calling me names, consider the following: Christianit,y on Morality: Morality is objective(Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself). Morality is absolute and unchanging and comes from God, all Men and Women know right from wrong because they are created in Gods image. Atheism on Morality: Morality is subjective( Subjective moraals are those that depend on you, your situation, culture, and your preferences. Subjective morals change, can become contradictory, and might differ from person to person.) So if the public agreed that killing children from families that have more than one child is okay, then it is actually okay. Jeffrey Dahmer an atheist who was sentenced to prison for 900yrs, He brutally killed seventeen men and boys, dismembering them, storing their parts, and indulging in cannibalism and necrophilia. He said “if a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within a acceptable ranges?”. If you, as an atheist, say that what is morally good is that which reduces over-all harm, then on what basis do you validate that assertion as being a proper moral standard? Greatest Role model’s for Christianity: Jesus, Mary and the apostles, the martyrs of faith and saints. Greatest Role model’s for Atheism: Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Napoleon and Jim Jones. True Christian Family: Family hierarchy the husband the head, children properly disciplined and brought up in the Christian order, Children obey parents and daily worship and pray and visits to church. Peace at home. No divorce rates in a true Christian family. The Atheistic Family: No family hierarchy but democracy where everyone rules, husband not the head, no family order, no family discipline children rebelling against parents, husbands and wives quarrelling often, wife not obeying & husband not listening. Divorce rates extremely high, moral standards very low-morality is subjective. No peace in the family. Envies against one another. The Atheist agenda: Self-Righteous, Very high egoticism, Pride is essentially self-worship. Anything we accomplish in this world would not have been possible were it not for God enabling and sustaining us. (Admitting sin and acknowledging that in our own strength we can do nothing to inherit eternal life is a constant stumbling block for prideful people.) Christianity: To Accomplish God’s will daily, always ready to repent when sinned, striving for humility and meekness. To the carry the cross. Why Atheists have still not found God: They aren’t looking and second they want to avoid him. Just assuming the God of the Bible is evil without reading within context or based on what other people think. Main fundamental doctrine of Atheism: The denial of God through lack of belief, Core foundation is self will and trusting in the theory of evolution. True Christian Thoughts: God created everything, no evolution, myths can’t be accepted as facts. What atheism has done for humanity: Godless homes, The blurring away of sexual morality now LGBT in society and Genocide: Pol Pot (Cambodia): 1,700,000 people killed, Atheistic Hitler Killed (Germany): 12,000,000, Atheistic Stalin Killed (Russia): 35,000,000 killed, Mao Zedong (China): 100,000,000+ killed What Christianity has done for humanity: Laws that required justice among all people. (Before this, power and oppression ruled.) Laws that required providing for the feeding of the poor by leaving grains and produce for the poor in the fields.(Law of Moses) Dietary laws instituted hygeine at a time when few practiced it. Christianity is the force behind fairness for the poor, orphans, widows, and the disenfranchised of every age. Christianity is the basis of our jurisprudence, economics, and owning property. Christian first ever Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages. Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the world’s greatest universities were started for Christian purposes. The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in more modern times, Equal in dignity for Men and Women as they are both in God’s Images however different roles and etc. Evidence for God: The Kalam Cosmological Argument, The Ontological Argument, The Moral Argument, Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible,Biblical Manuscripts, the historical accuracy of the Bible and archaeology and The existence of occult supernatural magic e.g Ouija Boards, Horscopes and demon magician etc and Christian miracles and life changing power. Christianity based on: Faith and Reason Atheism based on: Feelings, self will for example why won’t God do it my way and Ignorance of reason, trusting in pseudo science like Biological evolution.
The easiest and simplest way to prove God's existence is to provide evidence of its existence. But there is lot lot easier way to do it. Disapprove the theory of Naturalistic Evolution and this automatically Proves God's existence or Prove Evolution and you automatically disapprove God's existence.
I'd say Theistic Evolution is only a recent idea, theistic evolution was an attempt to make the Bible fit with evolution and it wasn't as if we got evolution from the Bible because the normal traditional reading of Genesis for 2000 years was a literal 6 day creation. Genesis does not talk about the Big bang or apes evolving. The problem is this is not how to interpret the Bible in the right way, the thing is you don't use an idea to fit in with the Bible but we see if the idea fits in with the Bible. Theistic evolution is not in harmony with the Bible, but it is in total conflict with it. Misrepresents the nature of the Christian God, allows millions of years of death and horror before sin. It makes the Christian God look weak and lacking power because God had to Lie in Genesis that he created the world in 6 days and wait millions of years of death and evolution until Adam and Eve came on the scene even though Genesis(Bible) says there was no death in the creation week.
The two options.
A)Prove Naturalistic Evolution to be true and you take out God's existence because this shows a natural explanation of how everything came into existence without the assistance of the supernatural.
B)Take out Naturalistic Evolution and the existence of God is automatically Proven.
Because it's one or the other,
A):We came here by an accident without true meaning or purpose, but we are just some random living organism in space, Or
B):God created us with a meaning and purpose to life, not including our private wants.
But it also depends on ones honesty as well, not just the evidence, no amount of evidence is going to convince someone who is unwilling to accept it. So we must look at ii, in both ways.
A) Is there convincing evidence for Naturalistic Evolution?
or
B) Is there convincing evidence against Naturalistic Evolution?
When atheists say, the burden of Proof is on the theist to provide the evidence for Gods existence. There is a twist to the game you see, a theist may say the burden of Proof is on the atheist to provide proof of Naturalistic Evolution that we came into existence by an accident, see the problem? So, we must check both sides.
Again, I appreciate your point, but I am having trouble accepting that common argument from atheists, when getting deep into the cosmological argument "It doesn't mean God did it, so I lack belief in God".
The problem I see.
If it can be proven that we didn't come here by an accident of mindless dumb evolution without meaning or purpose, then we obviously know God did it, But the atheist may say "BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN GOD DID IT Just because we didn't come here by an accident through chance of evolution!" Well in that case if you prefer not to use the term "God," you may simply call him/it: "The Extremely Powerful, Uncaused, Necessarily Existing, Non-Contingent, Non-Physical, Immaterial, Eternal Being Who Created the Entire Universe...And Everything In It." With a meaning and a purpose to life.
Great jumping junebugs! It's all so clear now. I've been an atheist all my life, and no one has EVER brought up these points - or anything remotely like them - before. It's going to take me a bit of time to consider all of these new and cogent arguments, each of them shining like a new penny.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
RE: Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity
November 20, 2016 at 12:50 pm
(November 20, 2016 at 12:39 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Either you don't understand evolution, or you're a Poe, or you're a Poe who doesn't understand evolution.
I don't believe these claims - convince me that your evolution did it.
RE: Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity
November 20, 2016 at 12:54 pm
(November 20, 2016 at 12:50 pm)The Joker Wrote:
(November 20, 2016 at 12:39 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Either you don't understand evolution, or you're a Poe, or you're a Poe who doesn't understand evolution.
I don't believe these claims - convince me that your evolution did it.
We win. Fuck off.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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