(November 25, 2016 at 9:55 pm)Balaco Wrote:

Quote:1) How can humanity be the centerpiece of any deity's plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe? 

My Answer: God loves us that much.

2) Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it? 

My Answer: Personally, I am looking forward to spending part of my heaven ... exploring the heavens. And with a glorified body, it could well be that I won't even need a space ship to do it. I want to see a comet close up. Explore other worlds, observe quasars, visit some of these other galaxies and solar systems, etc.

3) Why would God care about us?

My Answer: God is love.

4) Afterlife?

My Answer: The martyrs believed in it enough to give their lives for it.

5) Lack of miracles in today's modern world?

My Answer: Goes along with the lack of faith in today's modern world. That said, there are still miracles in today's modern world ... there are also skeptics around who deny them.

1) What does God "love"? Humanity as a species or individual human beings? If you love someone, then you desire that which is best for them.  If you are able to provide that which is best for them or prevent that which will prove harmful from taking effect, and moreover, you can do so at no cost to yourself, then you immediately bring that which is best for them to fruition... without fail.  But we observe that God fails at this continuously, for individuals and for humanity as a species.  So much for 1 Corinthians 13:8!

2) This person believes that in their "glorified" body they're going to fly around the Milky Way galaxy and explore black holes?  Well, shit.  At least Mormonism promises to make you a god over your own planet.  But if this whole life everlasting is really everlasting, believe me, you'll outlast the interesting things that there are to see and do.  Unless the idea of flying around large chunks of rock and giant balls of gas strikes you as an activity that could literally never get old... similar to how I view humankind's extraordinary vanity and the foolish thoughts it puts into motion. 

3) God is love?  But I thought God loves.  So, love loves?  If I love my dog, do I God my dog?  What does that mean?  I love good feelings.  Then is it correct to say that I God good feelings?  But I thought God was good.  So must I God God feelings?  Hmm.  It seems that, literally, God is not love, but rather love is an expression of God that He is alleged to display from time to time... but in a timeless way.

4) Which martyrs?  We're talking about Greeks? Persians?  Jews? Muslims? Christians?

5) Define "miracle."  What does it matter if any of those involved possess faith?  What evidence is there for a miracle, and what justification can one mount that this is related to their pet metaphysical entities?

(November 25, 2016 at 9:55 pm)Balaco Wrote: Brought this particular post up to a Catholic website and got this response I'd like to hear a counterclaim of. Pretty sure I can tell what you guys are going to have to say but I'm interested anyway. These answers seem dependent on love of and belief in the loving nature of God...so I'll probably just have to continue my research on the existence of God.

1 and 3 don't really answer the question and I get the impression that the person answering did not understand them. The questions imply that there is no evidence that there is a god, or that there is one that does not pay us any attention. Explaining that god's apparent abandonment of humanity shows how much he loves us doesn't make sense.

2 was basically "I'll check it out after I die." Not really an answer and again seems to misunderstand the point.

4 would lead you to wonder why the Islamic martyrs today are not sufficient proof of Allah's existence. Why would they die for a lie?

5 makes a claim that cannot be substantiated, though the wording implies that this is a matter of faith. I'd ask for a list of those miracles. I also wonder what kind of list I would get if I asked a Muslim or Hindu or another Christian denomination, and what any of those would say about this person's list. Any bets that a good number of those miracles would be explained as the devil trying to lead people away from god's truth?

It's common for theists to give vague answers, or answers that rely only on their holy book, or to contend that their claims cannot be disproven. Consider how they would react to the same explanation given by someone of a different denomination or faith, and see if they can explain how one might establish the truth of any such claims. Turning to philosophy or metaphysics or intuition when dealing with an atheist may seem to work, but not so much when they're dealing with someone who uses their same approach and they realize that there is no consensus on how those methods can be consistently applied in order to get to the truth.

(November 25, 2016 at 9:55 pm)Balaco Wrote: Brought this particular post up to a Catholic website and got this response I'd like to hear a counterclaim of. Pretty sure I can tell what you guys are going to have to say but I'm interested anyway. These answers seem dependent on love of and belief in the loving nature of God...so I'll probably just have to continue my research on the existence of God.

Quote:1) How can humanity be the centerpiece of any deity's plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe? 

My Answer: God loves us that much.

2) Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it? 

My Answer: Personally, I am looking forward to spending part of my heaven ... exploring the heavens. And with a glorified body, it could well be that I won't even need a space ship to do it. I want to see a comet close up. Explore other worlds, observe quasars, visit some of these other galaxies and solar systems, etc.

3) Why would God care about us?

My Answer: God is love.

4) Afterlife?

My Answer: The martyrs believed in it enough to give their lives for it.

5) Lack of miracles in today's modern world?

My Answer: Goes along with the lack of faith in today's modern world. That said, there are still miracles in today's modern world ... there are also skeptics around who deny them.

1 and 3) Those aren't really answers. I mean, I suppose they could be, if you're satisfied enough with that kind of "fluff" response. But it doesn't address the concern I raise: the enormity of the entire universe versus the comparative insignificance of humankind. I'm saying that the universe is insurmountably large, full of billions of galaxies and planets and stars, and yet Christianity is expecting us to believe that a god intelligent and complex enough to create such a vast universe would actually take the time to make us the center of the stage, and pay attention to what we do. And the reply is: "Yes. Because he loves us." If he loves us, then why make 99.9% of the universe uninhabitable and downright dangerous? If he loves us, why make the universe so infinitely humungous, and our planet so incomparably miniscule? Think about it. Earth can be sucked into a black hole, hit by an asteroid, devastated by solar flares and radiation and global warming and one day, millions of years in the future, regarldess of what we do, our sun will die, and if we have not left yet, we'll be dead as well. Some scientists predict that we may need to migrate from Earth in the next 1000 years if we hope to survive. And if a planet cannot be found within reachable distance, a planet where life grows or can grow, then we'll go extinct. And because the universe is so large, finding such a planet and being able to reach it (as it will likely be located millions of miles away) will be a dangerous and uncertain venture that will likely result in much of humanity dying off... or being left behind to die.... When I think about stuff like that, and then I contemplate the idea of a god "loving us"... It doesn't compute, because it doesn't make sense. 

I mean, that sort of sounds a bit ridiculous, when examined from an objective perspective. It essentially tells us to ignore the logic, have faith only in that he loves us. I... can't really rebuttal that, because there's no debatable point there. It's just a matter of whether or not you can honestly be content with that sort of answer.

2) This is also complete fluff, as there is not the slightest reliable evidence to suggest that the afterlife exists... let alone that the hypothetical afterlife will be spent exploring the cosmos. As far as I know, such a notion is not even written in the Bible. It's completely made up, and it flies in the face of all scientific ideas and understanding. It sounds almost as absurd the Mormons claiming they will get their own planet when they die. 

4) That does not respond to the concerns I raised regarding the afterlife. I wrote that an afterlife likely does not exist because our brains and material bodies are responsible for everything that makes us who we are, as proven by science. And since all of that is proven to end after death, then where does the soul factor in and what would even be carried to the afterlife, since the person we are is gone, since the neuron firing in our brain that was entirely the cause of our personhood has stopped.... The answer you have given does not address this. "Because people have died for it, therefore afterlife"? Doesn't make logical sense, and it proves nothing. People can die by the hundreds, and they can believe that they are dying for something, and the people that come after them can believe they died for something, but that doesn't change reality. 

5) How do you prove a correlation between lack of miracles in today's world and the lack of faith? Are you insinuating that years ago, when more people believed in god, there were more miracles? Is there any historical proof for that? And what are you using to define "miracles"? Suspending the natural order, such as a cancer patient bouncing back, or Jesus appearing in a piece of toast? Because both of those things have logical explanations to them that do not require god in the picture. Or are you referring to defying the natural order, such as an amputee regrowing a limb, or a confirmed dead person walking around? There has never in human history been a case of an someone losing a limb and then waking up to find it regrown. Never. But that would be a genuine miracle, wouldn't it? But if it's never occurred in our history, how can we know that such miracles can occur at all, whether or not we have faith in god? Additionally, neither has someone who has been proven dead woken up days later, aside from the exception (as you would believe) of Jesus... but I addressed in post #85 why I am weary of taking anything in the bible as fact, especially resurrection. To prove your point with this you would need to define what a miracle is and then show how people believing in god once but now not believing in him has had a clear connection between the number of miracles in our world, and it would also have to be proven that there were clearly more miracles in the past... and you'd have to use more than the bible as a source to defend such a claim. 

Also, if there are genuine miracles that I'm missing out on or "denying", I'd be willing to hear about them.

Who cares about miracles, anyway? At best they demonstrate there's some external being which feels the need to occasionally meddle in our affairs. It doesn't tell us what this being is or what its motivation is. There's nothing I can do about it until it decides to communicate in a sensible way.

Speaking of nuns, how bout that sadistic money making charity scam run by Mother Theresa?
Oh noes, now I've done popped the bubble!

(November 26, 2016 at 5:39 am)robvalue Wrote: Who cares about miracles, anyway? At best they demonstrate there's some external being which feels the need to occasionally meddle in our affairs. It doesn't tell us what this being is or what its motivation is. There's nothing I can do about it until it decides to communicate in a sensible way.

They don't even demonstrate that. The most that can be drawn from them is that something supposedly happened. What the cause of that something might be is instantly shrouded in mysticism, often with a political aim, and divorced from external investigation. The believers are insistent on believing it no matter what, and how dare you persecute them for it.

And where do we draw a line, when anything dogmatically expedient is automatically a miracle? The book says the Sun stopped in the sky - it's a miracle! This baby is the only survivor of a 'plane crash - it's a miracle! I read a third-hand account of something that supposedly happened somewhere a century ago; all the explanations are silly - it's a miracle! My headache went away after I prayed - it's a miracle!