(November 22, 2016 at 11:36 pm)Balaco Wrote: Thank you for your responses everyone. I plan on reading through and thinking more about things about why exactly I believe in God more tomorrow, and responding more as well. As for now, in short, I suppose it was because I was raised Catholic, looked into the teachings without questioning them too much, and following the teachings seemed right. It just made sense to me.

The thing is, questioning my faith seriously for the first time obviously forces me to think against what I've considered fact for a while. This is the first time I've genuinely thought, "What if there's no God?" I know, from the mindsets most of you are used to, God existing is just made up and doesn't make sense. It's hard for me to let go of what I and so many others considered fact. Obviously I need to look into this more.

I remember being in your exact predicament in my 20s. Off and on. Incidentally my disbelief came in the form of a near death experience. I don't mean hey I almost got t-boned by a semi truck--I mean I was physically dying, choking on my own vomit unable to move, whilst being poked and tubed and pooping myself. I remember very vividly watching a lion catch and kill a gazelle on the television. That, shook me. To the core. I didn't think I'd ever see anything but those four walls again, and there certainly was no comfort to be found. I screamed for god silently because that's all I could do, was scream and call for god in my head--but, there was nothing but the physical agony I was going through. I was terrified that I wasn't going to heaven! It was the most frightened and loneliest I'd ever felt in my life, and I had been the best daughter of god I could be. I didn't understand why he wasn't there! I gave my life to god when I was a child and sang about "Shadrack Meeshak and Bendigo" as early as 3.

When I was 21 I discontinued immunosuppression meds for a deadly disease in order to allow god to "Work miracles on me through my faith, without the hindrance of man and medicine upon me", prompted by a church pastor and my family. Well, needless to say that went.. not well! The fear of abandonment that I felt after that ICU visit.. That took a while to brush off, but I did it with relative ease. You know how Christians claim to be the fish swimming against the flow of the other fishes? It's really the other way around, I found.
So, I chose to put myself safely back into the arms of Jesus and just wrote off the experience as just "not my time to die".

It took a few years of stewing, but eventually I found myself in the position to do research on the Bible and what I believed. I wanted to be able to refute the hatefulness spewed from my and my friends dads, just because my dad considered himself a devout Christian and yet he called people like my friend whose had crushes on his own sex since we were kids--a pedophile and sinner and if it were legal, should be stoned. Women should shut their mouths, he'd tell my mom, literally pointing his finger to the bible in his hand. What the hell? I thought god loved everyone?? My dad came to tears once just thinking of the Jews (who reject his Savior?), saying he would die for them. He even mentioned socially violent expulsions of Muslims!

Well, that wasn't the god I followed.. Was it? Sure enough there's stuff in the bible they don't teach in Sunday school, or private Christian school. Many Christians claim to be the true Christians. Like my dad did, or I did. I believed in a god of love. Personally I believe everyone has their own god in their heads, when they profess to believe in one. If you pay attention, god reflects people like a mirror, when they talk about him; you can't get anyone to agree and thusly there are so many different church denominations!

A few years later I was dating an atheist and thought I could "save" him, when in reality? It is he who saved me! All he did was ask me why I was a Christian. And the more I thought about it, the more I didn't actually know, why?  I noticed when he linked me to "just standard facts" like archaeological findings, that I had never looked up anything online without it being through the lens of a Christian website! So I researched all of the internet, not just the "safe zones". Kind of like what you're doing now, visiting an atheist forum, oh my!

In the end I couldn't answer that atheist. I couldn't think of a single time that I could attribute god being anywhere but in my head! There was no spirit filling my body when I went to the front of the church at age 6, seeking god. I was a very abused child. I just stood there waiting to feel god, but I didn't feel anything besides someone's hand on my forehead. I didn't fall backwards convulsing like the others, speaking tongues like shalalalala, so in my time of need I was told I was "not godly enough" to receive his spirit. After that I dedicated my life to god in prayer every night. And every day I lived it for god, but it was the same shit fest it was before. Life, sucks!

Anyways at some point I realized that the Bible I was taught, the stories? They were only a tiny portion of the entirety of the bible itself. The more I read what the bible said, the more I realized that it sounded like a humans' thinking. Why would a god get jealous, or angry? Or explicitly order women and children to be killed, but keep the virgins? Or favor a people who bash babies heads on rocks or tear open the wombs of women??? For that matter why would a god see fit to open up the ground beneath us tiny helpless human beings and swallow us up for losing our way? Or flood and kill all his population of the planet and start over with just one family? Sure most born again Christians say things changed with Jesus and his sacrifice, but, out of Jesus' own mouth he says not a letter from the law will change until the end of time (see my signature for references). And the atrocious god of the Old Testament is still the same god as the New Testament. That's why I ended up rejecting the Christian god. Don't get me wrong, there are some intuitive knowledge in"Christ's" supposed teachings. Just like any book, there is a historical and humanistic relevance to it. But to me, that's all it is. And most certainly it's no reason to enslave, kill, or reject those we share this earth with.

If you want a place to start, Look into the bible itself!I'd suggest starting at the beginning! The very basis, of the biblical books. The bible is simply a bunch of scrolls put together and edited, re edited, written and used, by man. Do you really think the gospels were written eyewitness accounts? They're not even titled as such! The Book of John, is a good place to take a critical look when it comes to its' historical relevance. Written centuries after the fact, it's the only book of the apostles that claimed Jesus was God. Why do Jews reject Jesus? That's another thing to look into, I would think.

And evolution? There's a reason it's now the scientific standard and that 97% of scientists believe it to be true. There isn't some worldwide conspiracy-- I've looked at the evidence. Evolution is being used every day in many ways, like antibiotics. You've probably gotten your flu shot for instance, which is based directly upon the theories contrived from evolution! Other countries teach it as it should be, yet my country (the US) has had to fight hard for the standard and still it is rejected as "theory" by uneducated populace too busy working their asses off, to look into the reasons why scientists believe as they do. The theory of evolution is no less relevant than the theory of gravity. Science doesn't know everything, but it doesn't claim to, either. It can only extrapolate from the evidence it hascat hand. At this point though scientists can predict certain fossils in certain time periods before they're even discovered! As you're realizing, we could say we were indoctrinated into a belief system. To me its not any different than what North Koreans live every day! Their god just lives on earth. We cry, we base our decisions upon, we conform to, and we give our lives for a particular belief system, too.

Don't take my word for it, go look yourself! Open up your eyes to a world without filters, its actually really fun!

Whales, for instance. They are actually evolved from land mammals that share the same ancestor as hooved animals and hippopotamus! That's why they have remnant posterior limb bones. I'm just naming things off the top of my head, but, search it on google!

Once you open your heart and mind to any possibility, and hold god aNd science to the same standards of burden of proof--you'll find your own answers. No one can tell you what you should or shouldn't be without losing all credibility to free thought.

After coming to terms with my and others' mortality and the fact that I wouldn't get to see my dead dogs and cats.. A huge burden was lifted off of my shoulders! Before, I had constantly worried and praying about my family and their physical and spiritual well being. Constantly I felt like I was being watched, and since I gave up on belief in ghosts or demons, I have cleared up a lot in my psyche that had been tormenting me! Recurring night terrors, gone.

 I think that's literally the only big difference that I noticed in my own day to day life. Now when I'm half dead in hospital beds, the thought of god doesn't even come into my head. If I die, I die. The only reason I fight so hard to live is to be here for those that love me and fight with me, like my husband, that "atheist" I went out on a limb to date.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about our universe and our place in it. I am an atheist. But I wish and hope for an afterlife. I constantly search for proof of such. Until I find it, I will not believe in something just because some else tells me to take their word for it. This is my "testimony", brother.

Here's the whale link, its neat. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/0...ler-text/2

(November 25, 2016 at 9:55 pm)Balaco Wrote:

Quote:1) How can humanity be the centerpiece of any deity's plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe? 

My Answer: God loves us that much.

2) Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it? 

My Answer: Personally, I am looking forward to spending part of my heaven ... exploring the heavens. And with a glorified body, it could well be that I won't even need a space ship to do it. I want to see a comet close up. Explore other worlds, observe quasars, visit some of these other galaxies and solar systems, etc.

3) Why would God care about us?

My Answer: God is love.

4) Afterlife?

My Answer: The martyrs believed in it enough to give their lives for it.

5) Lack of miracles in today's modern world?

My Answer: Goes along with the lack of faith in today's modern world. That said, there are still miracles in today's modern world ... there are also skeptics around who deny them.

1) What does God "love"? Humanity as a species or individual human beings? If you love someone, then you desire that which is best for them.  If you are able to provide that which is best for them or prevent that which will prove harmful from taking effect, and moreover, you can do so at no cost to yourself, then you immediately bring that which is best for them to fruition... without fail.  But we observe that God fails at this continuously, for individuals and for humanity as a species.  So much for 1 Corinthians 13:8!

2) This person believes that in their "glorified" body they're going to fly around the Milky Way galaxy and explore black holes?  Well, shit.  At least Mormonism promises to make you a god over your own planet.  But if this whole life everlasting is really everlasting, believe me, you'll outlast the interesting things that there are to see and do.  Unless the idea of flying around large chunks of rock and giant balls of gas strikes you as an activity that could literally never get old... similar to how I view humankind's extraordinary vanity and the foolish thoughts it puts into motion. 

3) God is love?  But I thought God loves.  So, love loves?  If I love my dog, do I God my dog?  What does that mean?  I love good feelings.  Then is it correct to say that I God good feelings?  But I thought God was good.  So must I God God feelings?  Hmm.  It seems that, literally, God is not love, but rather love is an expression of God that He is alleged to display from time to time... but in a timeless way.

4) Which martyrs?  We're talking about Greeks? Persians?  Jews? Muslims? Christians?

5) Define "miracle."  What does it matter if any of those involved possess faith?  What evidence is there for a miracle, and what justification can one mount that this is related to their pet metaphysical entities?

(November 25, 2016 at 9:55 pm)Balaco Wrote: Brought this particular post up to a Catholic website and got this response I'd like to hear a counterclaim of. Pretty sure I can tell what you guys are going to have to say but I'm interested anyway. These answers seem dependent on love of and belief in the loving nature of God...so I'll probably just have to continue my research on the existence of God.

1 and 3 don't really answer the question and I get the impression that the person answering did not understand them. The questions imply that there is no evidence that there is a god, or that there is one that does not pay us any attention. Explaining that god's apparent abandonment of humanity shows how much he loves us doesn't make sense.

2 was basically "I'll check it out after I die." Not really an answer and again seems to misunderstand the point.

4 would lead you to wonder why the Islamic martyrs today are not sufficient proof of Allah's existence. Why would they die for a lie?

5 makes a claim that cannot be substantiated, though the wording implies that this is a matter of faith. I'd ask for a list of those miracles. I also wonder what kind of list I would get if I asked a Muslim or Hindu or another Christian denomination, and what any of those would say about this person's list. Any bets that a good number of those miracles would be explained as the devil trying to lead people away from god's truth?

It's common for theists to give vague answers, or answers that rely only on their holy book, or to contend that their claims cannot be disproven. Consider how they would react to the same explanation given by someone of a different denomination or faith, and see if they can explain how one might establish the truth of any such claims. Turning to philosophy or metaphysics or intuition when dealing with an atheist may seem to work, but not so much when they're dealing with someone who uses their same approach and they realize that there is no consensus on how those methods can be consistently applied in order to get to the truth.

(November 25, 2016 at 5:52 pm)Balaco Wrote: From what I'm gathering, you guys generally view religion as a product of the mind, an excuse for hope or political power, etc. that ignores logic and bends accordingly.

What are your thoughts on miracles, whether large-scale ones like the events of Fatima, or "personal" miracles like those listed on sites like these, http://www1.cbn.com/700club/episodes/all...ng-stories ....Lies? Coincidences? Exaggerations?

Fatima? Embellished nothing

I identify as an atheist to try and further break the taboo, to break preconceptions, to support fellow atheists, and to simply be honest. The more "out" atheists there are, the easier it is for the next one to come out, and the harder it is to oppress atheists.

(November 25, 2016 at 5:52 pm)Balaco Wrote: From what I'm gathering, you guys generally view religion as a product of the mind, an excuse for hope or political power, etc. that ignores logic and bends accordingly.

What are your thoughts on miracles, whether large-scale ones like the events of Fatima, or "personal" miracles like those listed on sites like these, http://www1.cbn.com/700club/episodes/all...ng-stories ....Lies? Coincidences? Exaggerations?

All of the above. Anecdotes are highly unreliable evidence anyway. At best they only tell you what people believe happened. No one is an authority on identifying and classifying miracles. People just find something they consider very out of the ordinary and proclaim, "It's a miracle".

It's a problem of definition. What is a miracle anyway? If it's meant to be God intervening, that means that it's essentially him changing his plan "on the go". Why would he need to do that? If his plan was perfect, it would need no alteration.

And how do you identify one? It's always the argument from ignorance fallacy. People say, "How else do you explain it?" It's irrelevant whether or not I, or anyone else, can explain it. Again, I simply say "I don't know". I don't know what actually happened, or what the explanation is. It doesn't give free license to make up your own explanation without evidence. So what is a miracle? If it's just an unexplained event, then just call it that. No need to assume "God did it". If it's "breaking the laws of nature", then that is an equivocation fallacy, just like with the supernatural in general. We attempt to describe the laws of nature; at no point can we prescribe them. I have a video about this. (I was trying out an angry persona at the time You can skip to 1:00 if you don't want to hear me screwing around at the start.)

(November 25, 2016 at 9:55 pm)Balaco Wrote: Brought this particular post up to a Catholic website and got this response I'd like to hear a counterclaim of. Pretty sure I can tell what you guys are going to have to say but I'm interested anyway. These answers seem dependent on love of and belief in the loving nature of God...so I'll probably just have to continue my research on the existence of God.

Quote:1) How can humanity be the centerpiece of any deity's plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe? 

My Answer: God loves us that much.

2) Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it? 

My Answer: Personally, I am looking forward to spending part of my heaven ... exploring the heavens. And with a glorified body, it could well be that I won't even need a space ship to do it. I want to see a comet close up. Explore other worlds, observe quasars, visit some of these other galaxies and solar systems, etc.

3) Why would God care about us?

My Answer: God is love.

4) Afterlife?

My Answer: The martyrs believed in it enough to give their lives for it.

5) Lack of miracles in today's modern world?

My Answer: Goes along with the lack of faith in today's modern world. That said, there are still miracles in today's modern world ... there are also skeptics around who deny them.

1 and 3) Those aren't really answers. I mean, I suppose they could be, if you're satisfied enough with that kind of "fluff" response. But it doesn't address the concern I raise: the enormity of the entire universe versus the comparative insignificance of humankind. I'm saying that the universe is insurmountably large, full of billions of galaxies and planets and stars, and yet Christianity is expecting us to believe that a god intelligent and complex enough to create such a vast universe would actually take the time to make us the center of the stage, and pay attention to what we do. And the reply is: "Yes. Because he loves us." If he loves us, then why make 99.9% of the universe uninhabitable and downright dangerous? If he loves us, why make the universe so infinitely humungous, and our planet so incomparably miniscule? Think about it. Earth can be sucked into a black hole, hit by an asteroid, devastated by solar flares and radiation and global warming and one day, millions of years in the future, regarldess of what we do, our sun will die, and if we have not left yet, we'll be dead as well. Some scientists predict that we may need to migrate from Earth in the next 1000 years if we hope to survive. And if a planet cannot be found within reachable distance, a planet where life grows or can grow, then we'll go extinct. And because the universe is so large, finding such a planet and being able to reach it (as it will likely be located millions of miles away) will be a dangerous and uncertain venture that will likely result in much of humanity dying off... or being left behind to die.... When I think about stuff like that, and then I contemplate the idea of a god "loving us"... It doesn't compute, because it doesn't make sense. 

I mean, that sort of sounds a bit ridiculous, when examined from an objective perspective. It essentially tells us to ignore the logic, have faith only in that he loves us. I... can't really rebuttal that, because there's no debatable point there. It's just a matter of whether or not you can honestly be content with that sort of answer.

2) This is also complete fluff, as there is not the slightest reliable evidence to suggest that the afterlife exists... let alone that the hypothetical afterlife will be spent exploring the cosmos. As far as I know, such a notion is not even written in the Bible. It's completely made up, and it flies in the face of all scientific ideas and understanding. It sounds almost as absurd the Mormons claiming they will get their own planet when they die. 

4) That does not respond to the concerns I raised regarding the afterlife. I wrote that an afterlife likely does not exist because our brains and material bodies are responsible for everything that makes us who we are, as proven by science. And since all of that is proven to end after death, then where does the soul factor in and what would even be carried to the afterlife, since the person we are is gone, since the neuron firing in our brain that was entirely the cause of our personhood has stopped.... The answer you have given does not address this. "Because people have died for it, therefore afterlife"? Doesn't make logical sense, and it proves nothing. People can die by the hundreds, and they can believe that they are dying for something, and the people that come after them can believe they died for something, but that doesn't change reality. 

5) How do you prove a correlation between lack of miracles in today's world and the lack of faith? Are you insinuating that years ago, when more people believed in god, there were more miracles? Is there any historical proof for that? And what are you using to define "miracles"? Suspending the natural order, such as a cancer patient bouncing back, or Jesus appearing in a piece of toast? Because both of those things have logical explanations to them that do not require god in the picture. Or are you referring to defying the natural order, such as an amputee regrowing a limb, or a confirmed dead person walking around? There has never in human history been a case of an someone losing a limb and then waking up to find it regrown. Never. But that would be a genuine miracle, wouldn't it? But if it's never occurred in our history, how can we know that such miracles can occur at all, whether or not we have faith in god? Additionally, neither has someone who has been proven dead woken up days later, aside from the exception (as you would believe) of Jesus... but I addressed in post #85 why I am weary of taking anything in the bible as fact, especially resurrection. To prove your point with this you would need to define what a miracle is and then show how people believing in god once but now not believing in him has had a clear connection between the number of miracles in our world, and it would also have to be proven that there were clearly more miracles in the past... and you'd have to use more than the bible as a source to defend such a claim. 

Also, if there are genuine miracles that I'm missing out on or "denying", I'd be willing to hear about them.

Who cares about miracles, anyway? At best they demonstrate there's some external being which feels the need to occasionally meddle in our affairs. It doesn't tell us what this being is or what its motivation is. There's nothing I can do about it until it decides to communicate in a sensible way.

(November 25, 2016 at 5:52 pm)Balaco Wrote: From what I'm gathering, you guys generally view religion as a product of the mind, an excuse for hope or political power, etc. that ignores logic and bends accordingly.

What are your thoughts on miracles, whether large-scale ones like the events of Fatima, or "personal" miracles like those listed on sites like these, http://www1.cbn.com/700club/episodes/all...ng-stories ....Lies? Coincidences? Exaggerations?

Fatima was a mass delusion brought on by looking at the sun for too long, and even at that the majority of the crowd admitted to seeing nothing happen. It was the least well educated and most wedded to the infallibility of the church that "saw" the sun dancing

As regards the 700 club thing, thats from a scam run by a "pastor" who says stuff like "tonight a woman in Kansas called Patty will be cured of cancer by god, as long as she writes those cheques made payable to me" and "that hurricane in New Orleans was god's punishment for us allowing the gays and catholics to live".

Oh and to bring it home to catholicism, what was the miracle used to beatify Wojtyla? A competent doctor successfully performing a routine surgery on a patient who happened to be a nun.

Speaking of nuns, how bout that sadistic money making charity scam run by Mother Theresa?
Oh noes, now I've done popped the bubble!

(November 26, 2016 at 5:39 am)robvalue Wrote: Who cares about miracles, anyway? At best they demonstrate there's some external being which feels the need to occasionally meddle in our affairs. It doesn't tell us what this being is or what its motivation is. There's nothing I can do about it until it decides to communicate in a sensible way.

They don't even demonstrate that. The most that can be drawn from them is that something supposedly happened. What the cause of that something might be is instantly shrouded in mysticism, often with a political aim, and divorced from external investigation. The believers are insistent on believing it no matter what, and how dare you persecute them for it.

And where do we draw a line, when anything dogmatically expedient is automatically a miracle? The book says the Sun stopped in the sky - it's a miracle! This baby is the only survivor of a 'plane crash - it's a miracle! I read a third-hand account of something that supposedly happened somewhere a century ago; all the explanations are silly - it's a miracle! My headache went away after I prayed - it's a miracle!