Posts: 698
Threads: 16
Joined: October 17, 2014
Reputation:
16
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:05 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 9:04 pm)alpha male Wrote: @OP: There's several ways to address this. Today I'll go with...
God apparently knows what he's going to do himself as well. So, if such knowledge precludes free will, God does not have free will. If lack of free will precludes culpability for one's actions, God can't reasonably be judged.
So then god is not all powerful?
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:06 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 9:05 pm)operator Wrote: So then god is not all powerful?
Depends how you define all powerful.
Posts: 698
Threads: 16
Joined: October 17, 2014
Reputation:
16
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:08 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 9:06 pm)alpha male Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 9:05 pm)operator Wrote: So then god is not all powerful?
Depends how you define all powerful.
What do you mean how I define it? I think you just defined it yourself by saying god doesn't have free will. So you admit god it not all powerful?
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:13 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 9:08 pm)operator Wrote: What do you mean how I define it?
I mean that I can't evaluate your conclusion without knowing how you define all powerful. So, why don't you just define it?
Posts: 1548
Threads: 26
Joined: September 18, 2013
Reputation:
10
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:13 pm
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 9:15 pm by Mr Greene.)
As we've spelled out; Omnipotence is an impossibility at the most fundamental level.
For the record;
omnipotent
adjective UK /ɒmˈnɪp.ə.tənt/ US /ɑːmˈnɪp.ə.t̬ənt/ formal
having unlimited power and able to do anything:
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:19 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 9:13 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: As we've spelled out; Omnipotence is an impossibility at the most fundamental level.
For the record;
omnipotent
adjective UK /ɒmˈnɪp.ə.tənt/ US /ɑːmˈnɪp.ə.t̬ənt/ formal
having unlimited power and able to do anything:
What site is that from?
Posts: 698
Threads: 16
Joined: October 17, 2014
Reputation:
16
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:20 pm
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 9:22 pm by AceBoogie.)
(December 15, 2016 at 9:13 pm)alpha male Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 9:08 pm)operator Wrote: What do you mean how I define it?
I mean that I can't evaluate your conclusion without knowing how you define all powerful. So, why don't you just define it?
Did I ever make a conclusion about god's power? No. You did. You said god does not have free will since he already knows what he's going to do. From that, I asked if god is not all powerful at which point you proceeded to dodge my question.
For a definition of all powerful, see Mr Greene's post.
edit: Did he really just ask what site that definition was from? Dude you're an asshat feel free to go away. If you're not going to attempt to have a genuine discussion, you can kindly fuck off.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:25 pm
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 9:30 pm by John V.)
(December 15, 2016 at 9:20 pm)operator Wrote: Did I ever make a conclusion about god's power? No.
Yes, you did. The So...? construct implies that you find the question to be evident from the quoted position.
Quote:You did. You said god does not have free will since he already knows what he's going to do. From that, I asked if god is not all powerful at which point you proceeded to dodge my question.
But if it's really just a question, the answer is...no. Free will doesn't seem to be a function of power.
Quote:For a definition of all powerful, see Mr Greene's post.
Which one? He tied two together. My response depends on which is used, hence the request for a definition in the first place.
Quote:If you're not going to attempt to have a genuine discussion, you can kindly fuck off.
If you can't define your terms, you're not capable of having a genuine discussion.
(December 15, 2016 at 5:12 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Free will is a myth any way you slice it.
From the religious perspective, God is all-knowing. He knew how things would turn out before he decided to set them in motion. He knew man would eat from the tree if he just left them alone with Satan. So he left them alone with Satan. He knew who would be saved and who would be damned before creation. He knew how everything would turn out before he even set it in motion. And in the few times when they wouldn't turn out the way he wanted, he changed things. He "hardened Pharaoh's heart" when he REALLY wanted to kill a bunch of people, to give an example.
Why do you say that God decided to do something, implying that he had free will, when you say that he knew the outcome beforehand?
Posts: 1548
Threads: 26
Joined: September 18, 2013
Reputation:
10
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:30 pm
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 9:33 pm by Mr Greene.)
(December 15, 2016 at 9:19 pm)alpha male Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 9:13 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: As we've spelled out; Omnipotence is an impossibility at the most fundamental level.
For the record;
omnipotent
adjective UK /ɒmˈnɪp.ə.tənt/ US /ɑːmˈnɪp.ə.t̬ənt/ formal
having unlimited power and able to do anything:
What site is that from?
Cambridge Dictionary
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 9:33 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 9:30 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 9:19 pm)alpha male Wrote: What site is that from?
Cambridge Dictionary
That's not quite what you posted, but anyway: I agree that such a definition of omnipotence is an impossibility, as not everything is a function of power.
|
