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Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 14, 2016 at 11:42 pm
I would like to have some theists explain to me how fate and free will can coexist?
Clearly many theists believe that since god is all knowing, our fates are predetermined. God already knows what we will do, how we will do it, whether or not we will change our minds, what we think and what we will think in the future. God knows all because he created all and we cannot escape his ultimate knowledge of everything.
Yet...
Many theists also believe we have free will, and that this of course explains why humans can be evil or do bad things. We can choose to do as we please, when we want and how we want. We are the sole authors of our own actions and we are in control of what we do and think.
My question is, how can these two things coexist? How do we have free will if god already knows what we're going to do? God has already laid out the plan for our lives, so how can we choose to do anything? How can we even choose to believe in him or at least follow him, even skeptically, when he has already predetermined some of us to be atheists?
Isn't this akin to locking someone in a cell, placing a can of Pepsi and a can of Coke in front of them and saying, "You have the free will to choose to do whatever you like,"?
Maybe I'm missing something here.
Atheists, obviously, can also chime in. I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 14, 2016 at 11:48 pm
(This post was last modified: December 14, 2016 at 11:50 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
I definitely wouldn't call it "predetermined fate." We believe God exists in a dimension outside of time and so he already knows all the choices we will make with our free will. But yeah, him knowing what choices we will make before we make them, doesn't make them any less our own choices.
Anyway, hopefully someone else will come in here and also answer in their own words. I hate it when I'm the only one who answers lol.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 14, 2016 at 11:52 pm
And some people believe that if you clap real hard you can save fairies!
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 14, 2016 at 11:56 pm
(This post was last modified: December 14, 2016 at 11:56 pm by Homeless Nutter.)
(December 14, 2016 at 11:42 pm)operator Wrote: I would like to have some theists explain to me how fate and free will can coexist?
[...]
Magic.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:00 am
(December 14, 2016 at 11:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I definitely wouldn't call it "predetermined fate." We believe God exists in a dimension outside of time and so he already knows all the choices we will make with our free will. But yeah, him knowing what choices we will make before we make them, doesn't make them any less our own choices.
Anyway, hopefully someone else will come in here and also answer in their own words. I hate it when I'm the only one who answers lol.
I've heard this before about "god existing outside of time"... Not quite sure what that has to do with anything, but let's continue the conversation as if it is relevant.
How do you know god exists outside of time?
If god created me to be the person I am, how do I make any choices? God already knows what I'm going to do. Everything I'm going to do is predetermined, so it's not up to me, it's up to god. Fate is, by definition, predetermined. So if everything I'm going to do is predetermined is it still a choice? Once again this is akin to locking someone in a cell with no food or water, then putting a can of pepsi and a can of Coke in front of them and giving them the "free will" to choose to do what they like.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:28 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 12:32 am by Catholic_Lady.)
I'm not sure how else to explain it. It makes sense to me the way I said it, so I'm not sure where the disconnect is. Knowing what we will choose to do bc he has seen the future =/= predetermined fate and does not take away our free will. Let's say you jump into a time machine 20 years into the future to spy on your friend and what he's done with his life. And then you come back to 2016, but now you know what the coarse of your friend's life will be, assuming you do nothing to intervene or try to change what he does. I don't see how your knowledge of his future choices means you are taking away his free will.
Also, I'm not sure I follow your coke analogy. This suggests that God sets up entire specific scenarios and situations to put us in. That is not my belief of how things work.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:42 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 12:44 am by AceBoogie.)
(December 15, 2016 at 12:28 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not sure how else to explain it. It makes sense to me the way I said it, so I'm not sure where the disconnect is. Knowing what we will choose to do bc he has seen the future =/= predetermined fate and does not take away our free will. Let's say you jump into a time machine 20 years into the future to spy on your friend and what he's done with his life. And then you come back to 2016, but now you know what the coarse of your friend's life will be, assuming you do nothing to intervene or try to change what he does. I don't see how your knowledge of his future choices means you are taking away his free will.
Also, I'm not sure I follow your coke analogy. This suggests that God sets up entire specific scenarios and situations to put us in. That is not my belief of how things work.
You just contradicted yourself. Saying he knows what you will do because he has seen the future is the equivalent of saying he already has determined what you will do because he knows what you will do before you do it. Your actions have been predetermined.
God created everything right? He created the future, the past, the current moment, everything. Either that or you're saying god does not intervene in human affairs... which is it?
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 1:33 am
(December 15, 2016 at 12:42 am)operator Wrote: You just contradicted yourself. Saying he knows what you will do because he has seen the future is the equivalent of saying he already has determined what you will do because he knows what you will do before you do it. Your actions have been predetermined.
God created everything right? He created the future, the past, the current moment, everything. Either that or you're saying god does not intervene in human affairs... which is it?
It's simple. Most, if not all christians see their god not as an actual omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being, that has full control of the Universe. They see god as a dude with a crystal ball and a magic wand. Like a very advanced alien, who has enough power and knowledge to f*ck with ignorant peasants, but who's still mainly just a spectator in what is - supposedly - his own creation.
As long as you don't develop your understanding of philosophy beyond that of a child - you don't have to comprehend what the existence of an actual all-powerful, all-knowing entity would entail. You can just hide behind the dishonest platitudes fed to you by the clergy and other parties, with keen interest in keeping you ignorant, subservient and obedient.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 4:36 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 4:50 am by robvalue.)
They can't. It's bollocks.
But since we're talking about something that isn't yet in any way manifest or testable, people can make up whatever they want about it. My pet dragon is both 6 feet tall and 10 feet tall! What do you mean that doesn't make sense or satisfy logic? I don't care! You can't see it, so you can't prove it isn't!
The only fix here is that we make choices, but God then nullifies any importance they have by intervening to return things back to his "plan". If he doesn't intervene, then we can clearly thwart his plan.
It seems pretty clear that even this is a pretty lame excuse though. For example, what fate does God have for me? Does it involve living past today? If so, do I have the free will to kill myself?
Precognition and free will are contradictory and no amount of screaming and thrashing about will change that. If God is outside of our time, then he instantly knows absolutely everything that will happen before any of us make a "choice". So there are no choices. It must all happen according to his knowledge; or else he is wrong. If he is outside all time, he can't do anything. (He could decide to watch our time pass at whatever speed he wanted, of course. Or move it back and forward. Whatever. What's the point of any of this? How bored is he?)
I made a video about this a while ago.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 6:07 am
Agreed, rob. Awesome vid btw!
I don't get how this "outside of time" idea is supposed to somehow reconcile this contradiction we have here.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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