(January 19, 2017 at 3:09 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 2:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: My OP was definitely an aggressive reaction to those atheists that malign theists.

Malign theism...malign theism.  Comparing god to the tooth fairy has what, exactly, to do with you personally Neo?  Are you god?

Exactly. Pointing at the object of someone's belief is not the same as pointing at the believer.

I don't think Neo is saying that criticizing someone's belief, in general, is disrespectful. I think he's referring specifically to equating their beliefs to belief in the tooth fairy. 

On that, I do agree with him. 

It IS disrespectful to equate someone's religious belief to belief in tooth fairies. Because in our society, it takes a really really loony, strange type of person to believe in the tooth fairy. If you equate someone's Christian beliefs to that, you're basically saying that person is pretty crazy, not to mention kind of an idiot.  

For example, I can criticize a person's actions. I can say to someone who cheats: "cheating on your spouse is immoral," and I can explain why I think it's immoral and me and that person can have a discussion/debate about it. There's nothing wrong with making that criticism, and it's not disrespectful to the person to do that.

But if I say "cheating on your spouse equates to having sex with kids", yeah, that would be disrespectful to the person who cheats on their spouse. Because in our society, it takes a pretty messed up person to have sex with kids.

Likewise, it takes a pretty messed up person to think the tooth fairy is real. 

It's one thing to criticize someone's belief/action. It's another to compare it to something that would apply only to a crazy person. The former is fine. The latter is definitely disrespectful and an insult to that person's character.

Does that make more sense?

Oh I get what the argument is about that, CL. I just don't think that all beliefs need to be respected. If we can't point out the flaws in a belief, how can we ever really talk about the belief without coddling others all the time? Disrespecting someone's beliefs is also not equal to disrespecting the believer.

A person hardly needs to be loony or strange to believe in the tooth fairy.  Children believe in the tooth fairy with regularity.   All it takes is a childish disposition to believe in tooth fairies -or- god fairies. Whether a person finds the notion that they have a childish disposition to be insulting is their own business...iirc, "jesus" thought highly of childish dispositions. / shrugs

Absolutely. Religious beliefs have been protected too long. They need to be just as open to analysis, satire and ridicule as any others.

If a belief is worth having, it will survive all of those things.

But a Skydaddy is as silly as a tooth fairy.

It's just a more socially acceptable silly belief.

Coddling -is- disrespect.  It's the assumption that the other person just couldn't possibly handle whatever it is you have to say.  Such as, "Billy, there is no tooth fairy".


I guess, in Neo's case, that's actually true...but for most of us...I like to think that it isn't.

(January 19, 2017 at 3:10 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 2:33 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Hehe! I love dropping in on a thread and seeing Huggy posting definitions of a word, willfully ignoring the other, more context derivative definitions.

I remember why I never get into it with him.

Except the context was made very clear...

Bullshit.  I quoted every word from that post.  There was no "context" in that post which suggested anything other than an absolute and at no point did you EVER try to put it into context.  You just argued the entire time, still unable to simply admit even the slightest possibility that you misspoke.

Please remember, in a very active thread which we don't all visit every day a response to a post may be just that, a response to a single post, not the entirety of the conversation which came before.  When considering JUST what I was responding to, there was no damned context and your stubborn insistence that I am COMPLETELY wrong, EVEN AFTER you actually changed your position to agree with me, is really damned annoying.  Aren't you a Christian?  What does the Bible say about pride?  So, what if I'm wrong?  I guess we'll talk it over when we get to Hell, you and I.

(January 19, 2017 at 2:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: My OP was definitely an aggressive reaction to those atheists that malign theists. I expected the open hostility that followed. At the same time I found it very sad that so many atheists would 'double-down' on the tooth fairy/Christian God comparison. Others tried to distance themselves from the insult by saying they could respect the person without respecting their beliefs. That doesn't work. By implication they are saying that the admirable people on my list were too stupid to dismiss a childish belief.

To us, there is no difference.  Both are unfounded magical beliefs.  The only difference is that one of them isn't widely believe.  That's not really a very big difference.

And if you think about it, this entire thread is a blatant disrespect of my beliefs that the two are identical to bitch about me disrespecting your beliefs.  I never called you a "douchebag" for believing something I do not, after all.  Yes, to come right out and say it is a little rude on our part, but that is my belief and you're a douchebag if you don't respect it, right?  Why are your beliefs so much more important than mine?  Why are YOUR beliefs deserving of respect that MY beliefs are not?

So let me ask you this.  Do you see any difference between belief in fairies and belief in Thor?  How about fairies vs. Krishna?  Fairies vs. voodoo spells?  Fairies vs. Wicca?  In all of these cases, is one more deserving of respect and investigation than the other?  You obviously have no respect for belief in fairies, but that is a belief some people ACTUALLY HOLD TODAY!  By saying the comparison is an insult you are actually insulting the beliefs that others hold, and doing so while whining about your beliefs being insulted!

But it's not like I expect you to actually critically examine a point of view in opposition to that which you, yourself, hold.  You do speak intelligently at times, but at other times you are stubborn, prideful and extremely inconsiderate of any belief you don't personally hold.  And all of that while bitching about people being extremely inconsiderate of beliefs you do hold.

(January 19, 2017 at 3:26 pm)Jesster Wrote: Oh I get what the argument is about that, CL. I just don't think that all beliefs need to be respected. If we can't point out the flaws in a belief, how can we ever really talk about the belief without coddling others all the time? Disrespecting someone's beliefs is also not equal to disrespecting the believer.

There is a big difference between disagreeing and disrespect. Saying that Bonhoeffer's faith was in error is fine. Saying his faith was ridiculous (or delusional) is disrespectful.

(January 19, 2017 at 3:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 3:26 pm)Jesster Wrote: Oh I get what the argument is about that, CL. I just don't think that all beliefs need to be respected. If we can't point out the flaws in a belief, how can we ever really talk about the belief without coddling others all the time? Disrespecting someone's beliefs is also not equal to disrespecting the believer.

There is a big difference between disagreeing and disrespect. Saying that Bonhoeffer's faith was in error is fine. Saying his faith was ridiculous (or delusional) is disrespectful.

Why are your beliefs deserving of respect and mine are not?  It is my belief that your faith is ridiculous.  That is my actual, sincerely held belief.  I believe "douchebag" is the word you used to describe someone who holds that belief.