I'm trans and I could never keep up with female athletes even when I was into sports in high school. I'm not at all built for that, though. I'm built more for reading books.

I also went to high school with a cis female body builder who could beat out most of the men at most athletic competitions. Advantage isn't just a gender thing.

Like Alex is suggesting, maybe we should just separate people into only competing with people exactly like them. That will make everyone happy, right?

I don't care about women's weight lifting, I'm not that concerned about transgender issues.

If you care about women's weight lifting then it's probably not fair because this person has had the advantage of being a man.
Men are physically stronger than women and built with stronger bones and so on.
But then there's racial differences in strength and build of bodies I just don't think the disparity is as great.

I imagine the whole point of womens weight lifting is so they stand a chance of competing which they wouldn't against men, but then you get transsexuals or women with abornormal amounts of testosterone that complicate the issue.

If I was a transsexual in this persons position I'd feel like a bit of a cheater if I was a man for years and now all of a sudden I'm competing against women.
It's kind of a strange situation, weight lifters normally do everything they can to boost testosterone and now there's a man who wants to be a woman who still wants to lift very heavy objects competitively

Whats the problem?  

One of the uniform side effects of hormone therapy is muscle loss.  Perhaps thats why they set the threshold for 12 months....or you know, the association that makes those rules is just arbitrarily flinging shit at the wall and you...you, have uncovered the inherent medical unfairnes of it all?

People who voluntarily compete within -any- league or associations guidelines have determined, for themselves, the standards by which they compete. What could -be- more fair, than that....?

(March 23, 2017 at 10:53 am)alpha male Wrote: Of course it isn't fair.

The only way to maintain the transgender fiction without penalizing real women in certain sports is for transgender people to voluntarily abstain from sports in which they have an advantage. But apparently that ain't gonna happen.

Transgender is not a fiction so I can't take anything else you say here seriously. People are actually born with both male and female reproductive organs so it is not difficult to understand that you can and do see an entire spectrum of people as regards to sex. These people are deserving of the same respect as all humans are due regardless of any petty hatreds.

If she was permitted to compete while following the rules, and her fellow competitors willingly competed against her, I don't see how this is unfair.

(March 23, 2017 at 12:17 pm)Jesster Wrote: I'm trans and I could never keep up with female athletes even when I was into sports in high school. I'm not at all built for that, though. I'm built more for reading books.

I also went to high school with a cis female body builder who could beat out most of the men at most athletic competitions. Advantage isn't just a gender thing.

Like Alex is suggesting, maybe we should just separate people into only competing with people exactly like them. That will make everyone happy, right?

Both you and Alex are dodging the issue.
We have always accepted that some people are naturally more gifted in certain areas than others, not just sports. What we are seeing now is a man made advantage through technological innovation. If you feel like Alex that sports are pointless, then neither of you should even be discussing this as it is... pointless.  

The implication that no limit on the height of basketball payers for instance, is no different than allowing an athlete to add man made performance enhancing drugs/devices to his/her body is a silly argument.  I get that you think it boils down to "life's not fair so who cares how someone gets an advantage" but that is simply ridiculous. I bet you don't take that view in any other area?

---

(March 23, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: If she was permitted to compete while following the rules, and her fellow competitors willingly competed against her, I don't see how this is unfair.

Yes I agree, but are the rules fair?

(March 23, 2017 at 3:03 pm)Crunchy Wrote:

(March 23, 2017 at 12:17 pm)Jesster Wrote: I'm trans and I could never keep up with female athletes even when I was into sports in high school. I'm not at all built for that, though. I'm built more for reading books.

I also went to high school with a cis female body builder who could beat out most of the men at most athletic competitions. Advantage isn't just a gender thing.

Like Alex is suggesting, maybe we should just separate people into only competing with people exactly like them. That will make everyone happy, right?

Both you and Alex are dodging the issue.
We have always accepted that some people are naturally more gifted in certain areas than others, not just sports. What we are seeing now is a man made advantage through technological innovation. If you feel like Alex that sports are pointless, then neither of you should even be discussing this as it is... pointless.  

The implication that no limit on the height of basketball payers for instance, is no different than allowing an athlete to add man made performance enhancing drugs/devices to his/her body is a silly argument.  I get that you think it boils down to "life's not fair so who cares how someone gets an advantage" but that is simply ridiculous. I bet you don't take that view in any other area?

do you think changing gender, especially after full maturity, is just a change of clothes? Have you tried looking into how physically damaging it can be?

Sports rules aren't made randomly, there are already segregations where needed.

(March 23, 2017 at 3:08 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote:

(March 23, 2017 at 3:03 pm)Crunchy Wrote: Both you and Alex are dodging the issue.
We have always accepted that some people are naturally more gifted in certain areas than others, not just sports. What we are seeing now is a man made advantage through technological innovation. If you feel like Alex that sports are pointless, then neither of you should even be discussing this as it is... pointless.  

The implication that no limit on the height of basketball payers for instance, is no different than allowing an athlete to add man made performance enhancing drugs/devices to his/her body is a silly argument.  I get that you think it boils down to "life's not fair so who cares how someone gets an advantage" but that is simply ridiculous. I bet you don't take that view in any other area?

do you think changing gender, especially after full maturity, is just a change of clothes? Have you tried looking into how physically damaging it can be?

Sports rules aren't made randomly, there are already segregations where needed.

I think it's a complex issue with no easy solutions.

In this case changing genders is being done by doctors so we have to rely on the doctor to determine what to set the hormone levels at so the athlete now has to rely on science to determine their ultimate level of competitiveness. 

Look at the prosthetics I brought up earlier for example. There is a set of "blades" that was not allowed in competition because it was determined that there was far too much advantage, so a sports federation can simply decide to cut back the size and strength of the blades to the point where the disabled athlete will only win by a few seconds rather than winning by a huge margin... so who is really winning the race?  That is the complex issue I'm getting at.

I'm not saying my views are set in stone. I can't for example see any problem with a pool player transitioning and competing, but I don't think I'd hold the same opinion for a wrestler or weight lifter.

It seems as if the association in question has determined that, after a period of at least twelve months...there is no quantifiable biological advantage to having been born a male.  

I know, I know.."hur dur men strong and such-like".  Well, maybe...but not after hormone therapy, lol.

(March 23, 2017 at 3:48 pm)Crunchy Wrote: Look at the prosthetics I brought up earlier for example. There is a set of "blades" that was not allowed in competition because it was determined that there was far too much advantage, so a sports federation can simply decide to cut back the size and strength of the blades to the point where the disabled athlete will only win by a few seconds rather than winning by a huge margin...

This is the exact point, the sports federation is much better equipped to judge whether something is too advantageous or disadvantageous to the competitors, and once they have determined that, there is no need to cry foul unless someone is violating those rules.