Is this fair?

[Sal]

Reminds me of a Futurama episode where Bender gets a gender reassignment to compete in a women's sport and a similar situation happens.

[Crunchy]

Look at the prosthetics I brought up earlier for example. There is a set of "blades" that was not allowed in competition because it was determined that there was far too much advantage, so a sports federation can simply decide to cut back the size and strength of the blades to the point where the disabled athlete will only win by a few seconds rather than winning by a huge margin...

This is the exact point, the sports federation is much better equipped to judge whether something is too advantageous or disadvantageous to the competitors, and once they have determined that, there is no need to cry foul unless someone is violating those rules.

Again, I'm asking about the rules themselves not whether it is considered fair as long as everyone follows the rules. Yes, I agree that if someone breaks the rules, it is certainly unfair.

My point is that it is now the sports federation deciding who will win, not the athletes themselves. If the disabled athletes are not doing well, crank up the settings on the devices that will allow them to win, but not by too much because... that would be unfair??  If the trans athlete is doing too well, cut back on the hormone level allowed so she doesn't win by too much? Who is deciding the winner?

My mind is not made up on this. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I also don't want to see someone's years of effort and dreams get crushed because we have decided that one person currently deserves more sympathy than another. 

I think that each sport will have to decide for themselves how to proceed, but I can't see anyway forward that is not going to be controversial.

---

I'm not familiar with how this works. Is it possible to bring a transgender person's  testosterone level down? If so, then she has no unfair advantage. It's all about the hormones that make a man physically stronger than a woman (generally speaking, exceptions not withstanding).

It's a fair point, but I don't think anyone (including the best doctors) have all the answers as to how exactly hormones work or the full differences between men and women. For example, this research which shows differences in brain wiring that could also confer advantages in an area like hand eye coordination. (possibly due to our hunter/gatherer pasts)
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/me...y-120713#1



Does hormone therapy also change the wiring of the brain or just the musculature? How much bone loss and body structure reshaping occurs after transitioning? 
Also, if it's just about hormones, then women who transition to men should have just as much success in sports as men who transition to women, but I've not seen any evidence that this is the case. ( I looked and couldn't find anything, but that doesn't mean I have access to all the info)

[SteelCurtain]

If she fit in all of the rules, what is the argument?

Listen, I won't pretend that especially in sports like weightlifting, having longer levers helps a lot, but that would be just as true for tall cis women. I don't know how strict the testing for testosterone levels is, or if it's possible to manipulate those tests by training without testosterone and then lowering levels for tests. I won't guess the worst of a person.

Maybe there needs to be some conversations on how to adjust rules to account for transgender athletes. But as they are now, she did nothing wrong.

[Jesster]

Does hormone therapy also change the wiring of the brain or just the musculature? How much bone loss and body structure reshaping occurs after transitioning? 

The point of being transgender is that the "brain wiring" already matches up with the other gender. Everything that is soft tissue (muscle, fat, etc.) is reshaped and redistributed through hormone therapy.

If your only point is bone structure, what of cis women who have larger bone structures? That does happen. Is it just as unfair for them to compete? Should we kick them out?

Also, if it's just about hormones, then women who transition to men should have just as much success in sports as men who transition to women, but I've not seen any evidence that this is the case. ( I looked and couldn't find anything, but that doesn't mean I have access to all the info)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/texas-t...trnd-hold/

Do you think he should stay in the women's league?

[CapnAwesome]

Whats the problem?  

One of the uniform side effects of hormone therapy is muscle loss.  Perhaps thats why they set the threshold for 12 months....or you know, the association that makes those rules is just arbitrarily flinging shit at the wall and you...you, have uncovered the inherent medical unfairnes of it all?

People who voluntarily compete within -any- league or associations guidelines have determined, for themselves, the standards by which they compete.  What could -be- more fair, than that....?

Competing with people with the same chromosomes as you.

[The Grand Nudger]

That seems to be the trending counter-thought, though I'm not sure why.

[Shell B]

I think both sides have fair points on this one. Scientific evidence is the only clincher here, folks.

[CapnAwesome]

That seems to be the trending counter-thought, though I'm not sure why.

I think that the advantage to having been a man is fairly obvious for a number of reasons that have already been discussed. If it were strictly about current testosterone levels, you'd see trans-men having success competing with men. As far as I'm aware there has never been a single case of a trans-man having any sort of success competing with men. So it's clearly not just about hormone replacement and the level of testosterone.

[The Grand Nudger]

That seems to be the trending counter-thought, though I'm not sure why.

I think that the advantage to having been a man is fairly obvious for a number of reasons that have already been discussed. If it were strictly about current testosterone levels, you'd see trans-men having success competing with men. As far as I'm aware there has never been a single case of a trans-man having any sort of success competing with men. So it's clearly not just about hormone replacement and the level of testosterone.

Except that it's not.  Not to me, not in any study done on the subject, and not to the governing bodies of sports who -do- see potential advantages to baking soda use....

Testosterone levels are not the only thing considered, and I;m pretty sure I already commented on that.  The effects of transitioning are not limited to testosterone levels.  Bone density is effected as well, as are other hormone levels associated with performance enhancement.  In performance based metrics, strength, speed, endurance...all are found to be comparable or -lower- in mtf trans than in cis females.

No one can quantify this obvious advantage, and not for lack of trying. It seems as though the "advantage" boils down to nothing more than seeing a trans win something, not realize how often they lose...and then imagining shit.