(April 20, 2017 at 10:37 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(April 20, 2017 at 8:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You think transgender people "choose" their gender. That's your first problem.

And then there are the people who claim to be gender fluid.

Gender fluid simply means that one feels like they are a mix of both genders, though the "dominant" gender can change over time.

It's still not a choice. If someone honestly feels like they are a mix of both genders, I don't see how that is a choice, unless you can control your inner sense of self. I can't certainly.

Given that transgender people face higher rates of violence towards them, discrimination, ostracization from their families, and a whole host of other problems, it still boggles my mind that anyone would think that they actually choose that, like picking your gender identity is no different picking what cereal you're going to eat in the morning.

"Being transgender means people will mock you, your family might disown you, and religious conservatives will do everything in their power to keep you down."
"Sounds great!  Where do I sign up?"

(April 21, 2017 at 9:54 am)Faith No More Wrote: Given that transgender people face higher rates of violence towards them, discrimination, ostracization from their families, and a whole host of other problems, it still boggles my mind that anyone would think that they actually choose that, like picking your gender identity is no different picking what cereal you're going to eat in the morning.

"Being transgender means people will mock you, your family might disown you, and religious conservatives will do everything in their power to keep you down."
"Sounds great!  Where do I sign up?"

I suppose it's possible there's some who get into it just to be different (some of the more strident Tumblr activists can give this vibe), but I would be very shocked if it turned out they were more than 10% of the total trans population, and merely surprised if more than 1%.

(April 21, 2017 at 9:23 am)Tiberius Wrote: ...I don't see how that is a choice, unless you can control your inner sense of self. I can't certainly.

In the most neutral way possible, I am trying to reason through the apparent mixed messages in our culture about what the various components of identity are, how identity is formed, and how it is experienced. It seems that thinking about identity-as-such should inform how people think about particular identities or ways of identifying one’s self and others.

For example, people are identified by everything from their family relationships to their political views. Is sexual preference more like being a beer snob or more like having blue eyes? Is being African-American more like an inheritable trait or more of a cultural heritage? Is being religious more like being an architect or more like being a cancer survivor? A little of each…sometimes one, sometimes the other…?

The line between when it is right and proper for people get to choose their identity and when others get to choose it for them gets fuzzy fast. A woman may believe she is beautiful (how she sees herself) while the editors of Vanity Fair may not (how others see her). The sociopath’s self-assessment that he is not “crazy” probably shouldn’t determine the response of health-care professionals towards him. When it comes to the letting of State contracts, business owners do not get to decide their own demographic categories. The body politic decides who is a protected class and who is not. From these examples it would seem that identity is not entirely a personal matter but can, in some situations, may or may not be an appropriate imposition on someone by the society in which he or she lives.

With respect to gender identity, I question whether this must be an all-or-nothing proposition given that at least some components of identity come from culture in which we live. Maybe it is not proper to carve out gender identity as a special case in this regard. Maybe there are other opinion options that are not polar opposites, meaning not just fully biological or completely personal choice. So, on this one, I quoted Tiberius, because I suspect that while for him, and most people, not everything in their inner sense of self is under his control, but certainly some things are. And at the same time, there are many instances when someone’s inner sense of self is irrelevant to their place in society.

Of course I have my own opinions about the relationship between biological sex and identity. And I’m open to discussing them without advocating for a particular stance, but for the moment I think clarity about identity-as-such is much more important than agreement about the nature of any particular kind of identity.

Do I understand the mind of a trans person?  No.  I've had conversations with many, but I will never know what it feels like to be in the "wrong" body.  
But really - - - what does it matter?  A future where someone could easily change gender if they want seems great to me.  If they want treatment to look like another race, why not?
It's their body and their life.

(April 20, 2017 at 10:37 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(April 20, 2017 at 8:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You think transgender people "choose" their gender. That's your first problem.

And then there are the people who claim to be gender fluid.

Gender-fluidity doesn't make sense to me. The same people who are gender fluid or support gender fluid reject gender norms, despite the fact that gender fluidity is based on gender norms...

Aegon Wrote:The same people who are gender fluid or support gender fluid reject gender norms despite the fact that gender fluidity is based on gender norms

I think what they reject are not the norms themselves but the fact that they are typically presented as both absolute and binary. That is to say
that there are only two genders and you can only be one for the entirety of your life. And the one you are is determined by your biological sex
so you really have no choice in the matter. Now while it is true for virtually every human being it is not true for all of them hence the rejection

(April 21, 2017 at 1:31 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Do I understand the mind of a trans person?  No.  I've had conversations with many, but I will never know what it feels like to be in the "wrong" body.  
But really - - - what does it matter?  A future where someone could easily change gender if they want seems great to me.  If they want treatment to look like another race, why not?
It's their body and their life.

I think it would only be an issue if people wanted the treatment for free rather than paying for it.

The etymology of "gender" at first seems to be rooted in generāre, "to beget," which would indicate that it refers specifically to the reproductive role of a person-- and there can obviously be only male or female, barring technological influences.

However, one more step back and there is also "genus" (génos) which refers to race and other attributes of kind, and it seems to me there's a lot more flexibility there: obviously, there are more kinds of sexual identity than just those involved in baby-making.

However, there's a very important difference with regards to race, at least it seems to me. There's no concept of gender lineage: trans people aren't children of trans people going back for generations. Maybe 20 years from now I'll be called a bigot for saying so, but I think if you are going to identify as African American, you should have a non-zero amount of actual lineage from the African region.

That being said. . . what about a white baby adopted by black parents? Is there a "black culture?" Then I'd have to say someone could identify as "culturally black."

/ramble

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(April 20, 2017 at 8:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You think transgender people "choose" their gender. That's your first problem.

Oh, I'm pretty sure there are people who spend years deliberating and pondering where they want their gender identity to be.  Sexuality is a complicated thing, even one's own.

(April 20, 2017 at 8:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You think transgender people "choose" their gender. That's your first problem.

The idea that they don't have any choice is as equally muddled and problematic. Obviously being trans is on a spectrum, the same as being gay is on a spectrum. Some people can't help but want to be a girl and some people can go either way and choose how they want to identify, the flo-gendered. So it's not a black or white thing. However every trans person makes some level of choice, in terms of taking hormones or having surgery or whatever. I don't know how doing that doesn't qualify as a choice. So at the same time a trans-gendered person might have no choice over how they feel (nobody does) the whole process of being transgendered and how far you want to go with that (most trans-people choose not to have reassignment surgery) is definitely a choice. I don't know how anybody can say it isn't.

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(April 21, 2017 at 9:54 am)Faith No More Wrote: Given that transgender people face higher rates of violence towards them, discrimination, ostracization from their families, and a whole host of other problems, it still boggles my mind that anyone would think that they actually choose that, like picking your gender identity is no different picking what cereal you're going to eat in the morning.

"Being transgender means people will mock you, your family might disown you, and religious conservatives will do everything in their power to keep you down."
"Sounds great!  Where do I sign up?"

Well that argument doesn't really hold water though, because so few people are transgendered. Perhaps there are more people who want to change gender, but choose not to because of the reasons that you say. In fact most people who identify as transgendered don't have final surgery. They choose not to for one reason or another. I mean, what do you say about someone who transitions in their 40s. Weren't they choosing to live as their birth gender for the first 40 decades of their life or choosing to not reassign? How do you classify that period. I mean I agree that people don't choose their desires, but they do choose their actions. I don't know how you can call it anything else.

I listened to a talk by a trans-woman in their mid-40s who was still in the process of transitioning. Often times phrases like 'the most difficult decision I've ever made..' or 'deciding to give up my children to do this' or 'still deciding about final surgery' were used. It all sounded to me like there was quite a bit of choice involved in the process.