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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:16 am
(May 17, 2017 at 12:10 am)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: (May 16, 2017 at 10:56 am)SteveII Wrote: God knows without error what we will freely choose to do because he knows every fact and factor up to that point
If gawd knows without error what you will freely choose, then you are helpless to make a different choice.
If gawd knows without error you're going to wear a red shirt tomorrow, you cannot wear the blue one. What you're left with, under the auspices of an omnipotent, omniscient gawd, is merely the illusion of free will.
I was going to answer but hit backspace until it was deleted. Using "gawd" is obnoxious and I don't discuss things with obnoxious people.
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:21 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2017 at 7:41 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(May 17, 2017 at 7:30 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Blah, blah, blah. Didn't read a word.
Well... I never thought you'd be one to troll. I just wasted all my time trying to discuss with you for you to say "blah, blah, blah. Didn't read a word." after repeatedly misrepresenting my position.
I should either stay out of debates with you or just put you on ignore.
Your response is basically the fact that you can't deal with my arguments.
It's a pity you didn't read because the end of my post is a concise Q.E.D. against your position given by Galen Strawson.
(May 17, 2017 at 10:05 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (May 16, 2017 at 8:21 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: If you want to posit the non-physical as an explanation, go out and find me this non-physical.
This demand begs the question.
What question does it supposedly beg?
Quote:What we call physical is inferred from intellect and experience.
Intellect and experience are also physical.
(May 17, 2017 at 10:16 am)SteveII Wrote: (May 17, 2017 at 12:10 am)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: If gawd knows without error what you will freely choose, then you are helpless to make a different choice.
If gawd knows without error you're going to wear a red shirt tomorrow, you cannot wear the blue one. What you're left with, under the auspices of an omnipotent, omniscient gawd, is merely the illusion of free will.
I was going to answer but hit backspace until it was deleted. Using "gawd" is obnoxious and I don't discuss things with obnoxious people.
Looks to me like once again gawd's followers are offended on His behalf when He's called silly names.
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:30 am
Wouldn't you be offended too though if another person called someone you cared about deeply names? Like your mom or dad?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:34 am
Not if they were the all powerful creators of the universe.
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:34 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2017 at 10:35 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Moreso than if they insulted a beloved character from a fairy tale...but probably even less so than the faithful would be if someone insulted "god".
Whose got mom jokes?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:37 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2017 at 10:37 am by Catholic_Lady.)
(May 17, 2017 at 10:34 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Not if they were the all powerful creators of the universe.
I don't see why that makes a difference. If it's someone you care about being made fun of, you're going to be offended on their behalf. Regardless of how powerful they are, it doesn't change your human feelings of protectiveness for those you care about.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:39 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2017 at 10:41 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It's incredibly unflattering to the faithful to describe them as fangirls or fanboys of some beloved character, who are offended as easily on it's behalf as they would be of their own flesh and blood (or who are so easily offended by anything in the first place).
I've never met a religious person, in person, that was legitimately offended-for-god. This would be admittedly anecdotal, but I suspect that those types of believers are the tiniest smidgeon of believing snowflakes. / shrugs
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:41 am
(May 17, 2017 at 10:37 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (May 17, 2017 at 10:34 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Not if they were the all powerful creators of the universe.
I don't see why that makes a difference. If it's someone you care about being made fun of, you're going to be offended on their behalf. Regardless of how powerful they are, it doesn't change your human feelings of protectiveness for those you care about.
I'd only care for them and get offended on their behalf because they have feelings that can be hurt. If they didn't have feelings I'd only care about them for selfish reasons. If they didn't have feelings they'd essentially be a robot.
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:53 am
(May 16, 2017 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: You can't have free will without a non-physical process that is capable of physical causation (a mind)
Couldn't the Holy Spirit fill that role?
SteveII, I’d like to know how your think about total depravity. Scripture teaches that in our fallen and corrupted state we are slaves to sin (John 8:34, Titus 3:3, Romans 8:7), that people cannot of their own choice turn towards the Lord (1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, Mathew 11:27) and it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that people are called to salvation (John 6:44-45, John 3:27, Romans 9:16).
Also, it certainly seems like God is able to constrain or overpower free will when it suits His purpose, as when Peter denies Christ three times. So generally, it seems to me that libertarian free will in not something natural to man as a conditioned being – only God has unconditioned free will. However, when our hearts and purposes are aligned with His we partake of that unconditioned free will, i.e. Christian Liberty.
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RE: morality is subjective and people don't have free will
May 17, 2017 at 10:55 am
(May 16, 2017 at 3:57 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is an interesting thread. I appreciate everyone sharing their views. I'm surprised to see that so far Aroura has been the only one who has the 2 positions I presented in the OP. I was under the impression that most people here held both of those beliefs.
I don't know why. Most of us don't spend hours debating free will and morality, so you've only got a small sample. 
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