ANOTHER free will thread. But this time let's leave the two absurd extremes of Metaphysical Libertarianism on the one hand and Fatalism on the other out of the equation... and let's address Hard Incompatabilism versus Compatabilism.

When compatabilists like Dan Dennett says that hard incompatabilists such as Sam Harris are a "compatabilist in everything but name" that's, ironically, a clear knockdown argument against the compatabilist's own statement. It's basically admitting that all compatabilism is is a name. A term "free will" that's used despite having absolutely no difference ontologically from incompatabilism.

In case this isn't clear... look at this analogy:

When compatabilists respond to hard incompatabilists with "You're a compatabilist in everything but name!" that is exactly analogous to a naturalistic pantheist responding to an atheist with "You're a pantheist in everything but name!".

When a compatabilist says an incompatabilist is a compatabilist in everything but name does he do so of his own free will?

Nope. But he likes to say so

Haven't read the OP yet but I'm going to have to agree. There is a damned good case to be made against cannibalism. The thought of it just really eats me up.

Two metaphysical libertarians, a hard incompatabilist and a bowl of petunias walk into a bar, and the barman says; err... I'll get back later.

(May 18, 2017 at 10:20 pm)Succubus Wrote: Two metaphysical libertarians, a hard incompatabilist and a bowl of petunias walk into a bar, and the barman says; err... I'll get back later.

They all walk into a gay bar.

The barman asks "Did you HAVE to walk into my bar or could you have done otherwise?"

The metaphysical libertarian says "Of course! I just use my magical walking bowl of petunias!"

The hard incompatabilist and the compatabilist simultaneously respond "That's retarded!"...

...to which the compatabilist adds "You can do otherwise without needing magic"...

"Yeah... if you call "the universe could have made me do something else!" being able to do otherwise." says the hard incompatabilist

"Shut the fuck up I'm trying to be diplomaticl!" responds the compatabilist,

"And you think it's cool and trendy too.... Yuck. Fucking hipsters everywhere." responds the hard incompatabililist.

"What about you magical walking bowl of petunias? Could you have done otherwise?" asks the barman.  

"Well, I may be magical.... but I only came here because the metaphysical libertarian brought me.... and even if I could walk here of my own accord I wouldn't bother because what's the point? There's no free will so why bother doing anything even if I am a magical walking bowl of petunias."

"OH NO NOT A GODDAMN FATALIST" shouts everyone in the bar.

"Lets kill him and use him for perfume!" says the hard incompatablist.  

"Great idea! I would never have brought this magical walking bowl of petunias if I'd known it were a fatalist." says the metaphysical libertarian.

"Hell, I'm just a laymen and even I think that's a good idea." says the barman.

"What about you, Compatabilist? After we're done brutally murdering this bowl of petunias... would you like a sample of the perfume?" asks the hard incompatabilist.

"Nah. I don't wanna use perfume made from flowers because all my friends will think I'm a dork for smelling like flowers. I don't want my friends thinking I'm a faggot. Besides, I only came here to troll you guys with my redefinitions! And it totally worked! Ahahahaha!"

So the hard incompatabilist, the metaphysical libertarian, the magical walking bowl of petunias and the barman all happily beat the compatabilist troll to death and they all live happily ever after for ever and ever having many fantastic bar orgies without his homophobic ass. The end.











.... yeah I'm not good at jokes.

But your wording ability is second to none, Hamster.

Personally, I think the distinction between compatibalism and determinism is largely a distinction without a difference. In neither case, can anyone alter the trajectory of efficient causes and both presuppose physical causal closure.

(May 19, 2017 at 11:06 am)Whateverist Wrote: But your wording ability is second to none, Hamster.

In what way?

By the way I'm not saying all Compatabilists are homophobic trolls lol. I just said it because it made me laugh. I was just amusing myself.

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(May 19, 2017 at 11:35 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Personally, I think the distinction between compatibalism and determinism is largely a distinction without a difference. In neither case, can anyone alter the trajectory of efficient causes and both presuppose physical causal closure.

Compatabilism and determinism are certainly not the same thing.

Compatabilism is the belief that determinism is compatible with free will. Incompatabilism is the belief that determinism is not compatabile with free will.

A compatabilist may or may not believe the universe is deterministic... but either way they believe that if the universe is deterministic that doesn't rule out free will.

An incompatabilist may or may not believe the universe is deterministic... but either way they believe that if the universe is deterministic then that does rule out free will.

A hard incompatabilist believes that free will is impossible with or without determinism.

A libertarian incompatabilist believes that free will is possible but only without determinism.

A soft determinist is a compatabilist who believes the universe is deterministic.

A hard determinist is someone who believes the universe is determined and there is no free will. They may or may not believe free will is possible if the universe is indeterministic. Meaning that if they instead believed the universe was indeterministic then they may take up either the libertarian incompatabilist position and believe in free will or the hard incompatabilist position. Because it's possible to both be a hard incompatabilist and a hard determinist. I myself am one. I believe the universe is determined and it is not compatabile with free will. So I am not a soft determinist or compatabilist. But I am also a hard incompatabilist because I believe even if the universe were indeterministic that still wouldn't get you free will. I wouldn't suddenly start believing in free will. I wouldn't become a libertarian incompatabilist.

So there are three separate questions. There is the question "Is free will possible?" there's the question "If free will is possible is it possible in a deterministic universe?" and there's the question "Do you believe in a deterministic universe?".

(May 19, 2017 at 11:41 am)Hammy Wrote:

(May 19, 2017 at 11:06 am)Whateverist Wrote: But your wording ability is second to none, Hamster.

In what way?

By the way I'm not saying all Compatabilists are homophobic trolls lol. I just said it because it made me laugh. I was just amusing myself.

I crack myself up frequently enough too. Talking is a little masturbatory and we both know you own that event.

You sometimes get very wordy because you share process. I both like that and am overwhelmed by it at times. But especially in person, I only trust people who share some process.