(June 25, 2017 at 10:03 am)Cyberman Wrote: And if not, the errors will be found and corrected by those same peers.

That too.

There are followers of every single religion, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists have individuals, even with degrees, who try to either debunk science, or when they cant do that, try to incorporate their religion into science to falsely try to get it to point to their club. 

The problem for every religion is that scientific method is neutral and does not point to any religion. Far too many humans, like the OP fail to see this. Scientific method is completely independent of religion. It is why a plane will fly in Iran and Mexico and Japan. It is why a flu vaccine will work in Saudi Arabia and France. It is why a computer will work in China and Florida.

(June 25, 2017 at 8:41 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 8:36 am)KerimF Wrote: Should I have a point?
I just present what I have in mind before expecting from some others to share with me what they have in their mind too.

Me too, I seldom understand a new idea the time I hear it. And, not every idea presented to the world has to be included in my personal set of knowledge. So, naturally, I also expect that other human beings could be as I am in this respect in the least.

 
Yes, if you want to be taken seriously, not only should you have a point, you should have evidence to back up your point.

Do you mean I should act as a formal theist whose evidences have to found on some books, called holy, does.
I mean; how do I know the sources of your trusted evidences?

If you like talking about facts, let us try hearing the story about a fact which was witnessed by millions on earth. I am sure we will get hundreds of different, if not opposite, versions about it if we will have the opportunity to travel around the world. The reason is simple. People in different regions are usually raised to believe in different sources claimed having the truth. So I have no idea about yours (if there is any). On my side, I don't have any and I also don't need you to back up anything you may tell me because I know it has to be real and true to you in the least (assuming you are not kidding).

Another one of these religious Socratic goose chases I think. Kerim, is there a point you are trying to get to? I think you want to argue that God exists even though He cannot actually be found in the Universe. Am I correct?

(June 25, 2017 at 10:26 am)KerimF Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 8:41 am)Brian37 Wrote:  
Yes, if you want to be taken seriously, not only should you have a point, you should have evidence to back up your point.

Do you mean I should act as a formal theist whose evidences have to found on some books, called holy, does.
I mean; how do I know the sources of your trusted evidences?

If you like talking about facts, let us try hearing the story about a fact which was witnessed by millions on earth. I am sure we will get hundreds of different, if not opposite, versions about it if we will have the opportunity to travel around the world. The reason is simple. People in different regions are usually raised to believe in different sources claimed having the truth. So I have no idea about yours (if there is any). On my side, I don't have any and I also don't need you to back up anything you may tell me because I know it has to be real and true to you in the least (assuming you are not kidding).

I could care less if you were arguing Jefferson's generic deist God. I could also care less if you were arguing that the universe itself was a God. 

Our species is far older than the written language. Our species first bad guesses ended up being earthy gods like volcano and sun gods. On top of that our planet is 4 billion years old to which we've only been around a mere fraction of that time. On top of the universe being 13.8 billion years old. On top of our galaxy having hundreds of billions of suns, on top of our universe having nearly 200 billion galaxies in it.

So call your "God" whatever you want and define it however you want, seems a ton of waste to me if humans are allegedly the center of all this.

Maybe YOU need to consider there has never been such a critter and that "God" is merely a comic book reflection of human's qualities in their desire for a fictional forever.

Tell me why you don't accept the ocean God Poseidon as the gap answer to explain the cause of hurricanes? Tell me why you don't accept Thor as a gap answer to explain the cause of lightening? 

Maybe you should consider that humans are finite and merely a temporary blip riding in giant weather pattern.

(June 25, 2017 at 8:41 am)chimp3 Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 8:36 am)KerimF Wrote: Should I have a point?
I just present what I have in mind before expecting from some others to share with me what they have in their mind too.

Me too, I seldom understand a new idea the time I hear it. And, not every idea presented to the world has to be included in my personal set of knowledge. So, naturally, I also expect that other human beings could be as I am in this respect in the least.

Were you making an equivocation between geometric dots and "Will/Power" or not?

Many persons told me they cannot think about something that cannot be seen and/or heard (this is why, they are ready to believe, like some kids do, anything they may see on their electrical monitors, claimed being real and true). My simple answer to them was: I didn't mind being very interested in Math, though it has many objects that I can't see, hear, smell, taste and/or touch...    

So it wasn't a prerequisite to me that I should see, hear, smell, taste and/or touch the Will/Power which is behind my existence to start discovering it and get from it the knowledge that could be useful to 'my' being (obviously not to my flesh since the instructions related to it are already embedded in its living cells; known as instincts and human rights for a few).

By the way, as I mentioned earlier, all living things are not supposed to search the end purpose of their existence which is simply to serve the continuity of the world; the way that each species is supposed to do (the word 'serve' here may be about building and destroying as well).

Anyway, I spent too many years to have an adequate knowledge that helped me be a professional designer. So it took me even more years to discover the logical answers to all important questions related to my being and the world (the realm which is defined and limited by time/space) in which I was brought.
If I am not wrong, in case you are old enough you also got all important answers that you were looking for and are related to your being, in the least.

The first thing you need to learn is what the word "object" means.

Quote:ob·ject
noun
noun: object; plural noun: objects
ˈäbjekt/
1.
a material thing that can be seen and touched.

(June 25, 2017 at 11:13 am)KerimF Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 8:41 am)chimp3 Wrote: Were you making an equivocation between geometric dots and "Will/Power" or not?

Many persons told me they cannot think about something that cannot be seen and/or heard (this is why, they are ready to believe, like some kids do, anything they may see on their electrical monitors, claimed being real and true). My simple answer to them was: I didn't mind being very interested in Math, though it has many objects that I can't see, hear, smell, taste and/or touch...    

So it wasn't a prerequisite to me that I should see, hear, smell, taste and/or touch the Will/Power which is behind my existence to start discovering it and get from it the knowledge that could be useful to 'my' being (obviously not to my flesh since the instructions related to it are already embedded in its living cells; known as instincts and human rights for a few).

By the way, as I mentioned earlier, all living things are not supposed to search the end purpose of their existence which is simply to serve the continuity of the world; the way that each species is supposed to do (the word 'serve' here may be about building and destroying as well).

Anyway, I spent too many years to have an adequate knowledge that helped me be a professional designer. So it took me even more years to discover the logical answers to all important questions related to my being and the world (the realm which is defined and limited by time/space) in which I was brought.
If I am not wrong, in case you are old enough you also got all important answers that you were looking for and are related to your being, in the least.

Perhaps Erik Erikson's theory of Ego Integrity vs. Despair is at work here. Are you seeking validation of your wisdom or are you going to present your hard earned knowledge and allow us to determine its validity for our lives?

(June 25, 2017 at 7:07 am)KerimF Wrote: To become a professional designer (in electronics) I had to accept notions of non-existing objects.

The geometrical dot is a simple example. By definition, it has no dimensions. But the entire Geometry is based on it; a non-existing object.
Also in geometry, I didn’t mind accepting unreachable objects as well, as the intersection of two parallels at infinity.
And, although the square root of the algebraic number (-1) doesn’t exit, it was given a name/symbol as (i) or (j) in order to use it and simply the solution of many existing real problems.
 
But on the other hand, millions of people on earth live normally without the need to learn, for example, Math and accept (work with) its various definitions of non-existing and unreachable objects.
 
So, obviously, if someone didn’t feel the need to know anything about the Will/Power behind his existence, it is better for him not to think about it in the first place; as all pre-programmed living things do. In fact, the instructions of the Will/Power which is behind the creation of the universe are embedded, since always, in every living cell (as DNA for example). In other words, those who are born of the flesh only can know, by themselves, how to serve the world as they are supposed to do.
 
...

Before I go on, I wish I can hear some serious negative comments because such replies help me update my personal set of knowledge, most of the time. Thank you in advance.
 
Kerim

Sounds like:

1) you are convinced there is a God whose intention and power account for the universe we inhabit;

2) you believe it is possible to live ones life without studying or even hearing of this God;

3) you think the situation for knowing God and knowing geometry are comparable.


Okay, my order is life as I find it with a side of geometrical 'objects' but no gods, thank you.  What's yours?

(June 25, 2017 at 11:13 am)KerimF Wrote: [edit]

By the way, as I mentioned earlier, all living things are not supposed to search the end purpose of their existence which is simply to serve the continuity of the world; the way that each species is supposed to do (the word 'serve' here may be about building and destroying as well).

[edit]

bold mine

What do you have that supports this conclusion? I think that many would differ with you. One differing position would be that a living things purpose of existence would be to survive and multiply not caring if it serves.

Talk of a particular 'purpose' that a thing/being has is always loaded. Most things/beings play roles in multiple systems. It is hard to imagine any one of them being its reason for existing. Unless you begin with the necessity of shoe-horning in an intelligent designer it just doesn't/shouldn't come up.