(July 3, 2017 at 9:01 am)Die Atheistin Wrote:

(July 3, 2017 at 8:50 am)YouOnlyLiveTwice Wrote: Well, they tend not to be as insistent as other religious people, from my experience. It's less about seeing their opinion as "better", but a matter of them needing to rely on personal fantasies (in this case, self-admitted fantasies) to provide emotional or mental security for themselves. A kind of placebo effect, if you will.

Regardless, I'm fine with people who want to believe in certain things for personally inspirational purposes or as coping mechanisms. Where I take issue is when they try to pass it off as fact and/or when it blatantly comes into conflict with reality and is still maintained. At that point, it becomes an undeniable delusion.

But why are they using a particular religion as an aplacebo effect? Why aren't they trying more religions,in the free world there's no law that says they can't. They can even try having more religions at once if they want.

Well they rarely start from scratch.  Most just happen to be born into a family/community which promotes the very religion they go on decide is only correct one.

(July 3, 2017 at 9:01 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: But why are they using a particular religion as an aplacebo effect? Why aren't they trying more religions,in the free world there's no law that says they can't. They can even try having more religions at once if they want.

The poor dears are struggling as it is. The difference between a moderate and a fundie Christian is; the moderate knows the whole thing is a crock, but the conditioning runs deep, they cannot admit it, they will lose face. But the same moderate will be just as defensive as the fundie if their beliefs are questioned. Again, this is down to the power of indoctrination. Get them young, put the crucifix around their necks at four years old and you own them.

People who want to con themselves with god fantasies don't bother me nearly as much as the ones who want to enact their fucking fantasies into law and shove them up everyone elses ass.

Those fundie motherfuckers are the ones you have to watch.

(July 3, 2017 at 11:31 am)Minimalist Wrote: People who want to con themselves with god fantasies don't bother me nearly as much as the ones who want to enact their fucking fantasies into law and shove them up everyone elses ass.

Those fundie motherfuckers are the ones you have to watch.

You are right, the fundie are the real danger. It's just that I don't get moderates.

They are born into it.  They never really think about it.  It is just a vague group that they think they belong to.

But the fundies define the groups.

(July 3, 2017 at 8:34 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: This applies to all moderate theistic religious (christians, jews, muslims, etc.). The ones who don't claim that their belief is better, that don't interpret their holy texts literally. My mom is one of them, she claims that we may never know if there's a God or not, but believing that a loving God who protects you will give you positive energy. It's like saying: "I don't know how the world works but I'll imagine it how I want it to be, because the reality can be scary". Why are they so emotionally connected to this, yet willing (or more likely) to change their opinion in every other aspect of life? And if they don't see their opinion as better, why are they insisting so much on it?

The whole of Judaism believes that Judaism is only for Jews, it is not intended for non-Jews, and that other people have perfectly valid ways of life. The vast majority of Judaism holds that the Torah’s depiction of creation need not be taken literally and that there is plenty of room to interpret the Torah differently so it makes more sense with facts of the natural world.  Reading through Jewish commentary dating back through 900 years in the past will firmly support my assertion. 

I am, by your definition, a moderate theist. I also don’t know how the world works, but I rely on a combination of science and religious views to explain it to myself. I’m content with my explanations, yet I’m not emotionally connected to them, and I do not think my way of thinking is better than yours, as you suggested. As new information comes in, I’m prepared to reevaluate my thinking. I insist on my views to myself because they make me happy, and for no other reason. I do not insist on my views (to others) because I can’t prove them to your satisfaction and I don’t think you need to believe the way I believe to live a happy, full life. I stand to gain nothing from insisting on my views to anyone other than myself.

… and if anyone doesn’t like the way I privately view the world, especially when it doesn’t affect them in any way what-so-ever, then those people are emotionally and socially maladjusted.

(July 3, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(July 3, 2017 at 8:34 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: This applies to all moderate theistic religious (christians, jews, muslims, etc.). The ones who don't claim that their belief is better, that don't interpret their holy texts literally. My mom is one of them, she claims that we may never know if there's a God or not, but believing that a loving God who protects you will give you positive energy. It's like saying: "I don't know how the world works but I'll imagine it how I want it to be, because the reality can be scary". Why are they so emotionally connected to this, yet willing (or more likely) to change their opinion in every other aspect of life? And if they don't see their opinion as better, why are they insisting so much on it?

The whole of Judaism believes that Judaism is only for Jews, it is not intended for non-Jews, and that other people have perfectly valid ways of life. The vast majority of Judaism holds that the Torah’s depiction of creation need not be taken literally and that there is plenty of room to interpret the Torah differently so it makes more sense with facts of the natural world.  Reading through Jewish commentary dating back through 900 years in the past will firmly support my assertion. 

I am, by your definition, a moderate theist. I also don’t know how the world works, but I rely on a combination of science and religious views to explain it to myself. I’m content with my explanations, yet I’m not emotionally connected to them, and I do not think my way of thinking is better than yours, as you suggested. As new information comes in, I’m prepared to reevaluate my thinking. I insist on my views to myself because they make me happy, and for no other reason. I do not insist on my views (to others) because I can’t prove them to your satisfaction and I don’t think you need to believe the way I believe to live a happy, full life. I stand to gain nothing from insisting on my views to anyone other than myself.

… and if anyone doesn’t like the way I privately view the world, especially when it doesn’t affect them in any way what-so-ever, then those people are emotionally and socially maladjusted.

I appreciate your response. I wouldn't force anyone to have my beliefs either. But I have another question, if you would find something wrong about a religious institution, would you want to change that thing about it?

(July 3, 2017 at 3:13 pm)Die Atheistin Wrote:

(July 3, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Aliza Wrote: The whole of Judaism believes that Judaism is only for Jews, it is not intended for non-Jews, and that other people have perfectly valid ways of life. The vast majority of Judaism holds that the Torah’s depiction of creation need not be taken literally and that there is plenty of room to interpret the Torah differently so it makes more sense with facts of the natural world.  Reading through Jewish commentary dating back through 900 years in the past will firmly support my assertion. 

I am, by your definition, a moderate theist. I also don’t know how the world works, but I rely on a combination of science and religious views to explain it to myself. I’m content with my explanations, yet I’m not emotionally connected to them, and I do not think my way of thinking is better than yours, as you suggested. As new information comes in, I’m prepared to reevaluate my thinking. I insist on my views to myself because they make me happy, and for no other reason. I do not insist on my views (to others) because I can’t prove them to your satisfaction and I don’t think you need to believe the way I believe to live a happy, full life. I stand to gain nothing from insisting on my views to anyone other than myself.

… and if anyone doesn’t like the way I privately view the world, especially when it doesn’t affect them in any way what-so-ever, then those people are emotionally and socially maladjusted.

I appreciate your response. I wouldn't force anyone to have my beliefs either. But I have another question, if you would find something wrong about a religious institutuion, would you want to change it?

Aliza's representation of judaism is accurate. I was taught by my grandmother about Tikkun Olam (sp?) sorry haven't studied this stuff since very young. My Jewish family believed in the necessity to try heal the world and certainly wasn't anti-science or anti-rationality per-se. The Judaism I was taught was ll about personal moral standards and trying to understand the nature of HaShem. And a lot of rules as well.

I also was interested in the rules for others and had to ask, and was told about the B'nei Noach (sp?) (sorry secular Jewish parents and I have never studied this deeply)

The Judaism I was taught as a kid was actually very benign, and then my ex-wife was a Palestinian Muslim. I had lots of great conversations with on many trips to Israel/Palestine, good people.

I am and always have been an atheist, but I won't throw the baby out with the the bathwater. HaShem means, roughly, The Name.

To me the name is reality, and I don't need a g-d for that(Jewish joke), but there is some good stuff there, but unfortunately a bucketload of evil, un-evidenced or batshit crazy stuff too..

The soft Judaism I learnt was, just try to be nice!!!

(July 3, 2017 at 10:36 am)Whateverist Wrote: Well they rarely start from scratch.  Most just happen to be born into a family/community which promotes the very religion they go on decide is only correct one.

Then my guess is that your parents were Ents.

(July 3, 2017 at 3:38 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(July 3, 2017 at 10:36 am)Whateverist Wrote: Well they rarely start from scratch.  Most just happen to be born into a family/community which promotes the very religion they go on decide is only correct one.

Then my guess is that your parents were Ents.

Well, I guess we are all twigs from the common tree of life