Flew's mind apparently turned to jelly.  Jesus likes them stupid, you know.

(July 8, 2017 at 6:09 pm)Fireball Wrote: I see some real beauty in mathematics,

Me too:

(July 8, 2017 at 9:09 am)Brian37 Wrote: ...An ethical scientist WILL NOT try to mix religion into their lab. 

Ah, but religionists will say that Jesus's 37 miracles were  science, or more specifically a "Superscience" that we know nothing about, and that to refuse to analyse them and push the bounds of scientific knowledge is therefore unethical in itself.
PS- JC also said we  could do the same sort of "miracles" too, so the subject clearly has hidden depths..

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(July 8, 2017 at 2:11 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(July 8, 2017 at 8:03 am)Dropship Wrote: Sorry to mention religion in this forum section, but I sometimes see articles like the one below around the internet that hint that God can be "seen" in the mathematics of DNA.
I'm a maths dummy myself, so can I ask the AF experts whether there's any logic in the notion, or is it just wishfull thinking by theists?

Of course what the christards leave out is that as Dr Anthony Flew grew old he grew senile, and had the misfortune to fall in with a bunch of very manipulative and immoral christards who decided that it was better for them to make up Dr Flew's mind than the man himself.

If you read any of his later writings or talks which touched upon his "conversion" to theism, you'll see none of the lucidity or intelligence which permeated his earlier scientific work, and find a lot of the common points you'll see in bargain basement badly argued apologetics by the kind of christards that are now dictating his words.

Thanks, but it's not just Flew who says God can be "seen" in the maths, it's other scientists too, so we're caught in the middle not knowing whether to believe them or not.
For example here are a couple more quotes-
"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."-Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): The Universe: Past and Present Reflections. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics: 20:16.
　　
"As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"- George Greenstein (astronomer),1988. The Symbiotic Universe. New York: William Morrow, p.27 

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(July 8, 2017 at 2:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(July 8, 2017 at 8:03 am)Dropship Wrote: Sorry to mention religion in this forum section, but I sometimes see articles like the one below around the internet that hint that God can be "seen" in the mathematics of DNA.
I'm a maths dummy myself, so can I ask the AF experts whether there's any logic in the notion, or is it just wishfull thinking by theists?

I'm no math dummy but I may be a total dummy where gods are concerned.  I've seen a little math but I've never seen a trace of god - either in the math or any where else.  On the other hand, I've found the phrase "In God we trust" engraved on money - and I do believe in money.  If your faith had been faltering maybe that will help you make it to the finish line.  But give up on the math, there is no God there.

Which brings us back to the old dilemma of whether we should believe scientists who say stuff like this-

"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe."- Galileo

"We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it.."- Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician),Gannes, S. October 13, 1986. Fortune. p. 57

"If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God."-Lord Kelvin (British scientist)
　
"We would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists"- Carl Sagan
　
"I cannot be sure that God does not exist"- Richard Dawkins

PS- Are my posts displaying alright? They seem to be running into other and it's hard to tell where one ends and another begins, plus the quote function further complicates the issue.

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(July 8, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(July 8, 2017 at 8:03 am)Dropship Wrote: ...I'm a maths dummy myself, so can I ask the AF experts whether there's any logic in the notion...

No, there isn’t.

Thanks, so when scientists hint they can see God in the mathematical layout of the universe, are they wrong?

So the creator of the universe came to the Middle East 2000 years ago to speak to a few toothless goat herders and has been hiding on toast, dog's arses and in mathematics ever since?

Is there any reason at all why he can't come and show himself to us today? Like he did then? Unless of course he didn't really come down at all and those cheeky Arabs just made it all up!

(July 8, 2017 at 6:18 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Flew's mind apparently turned to jelly.  Jesus likes them stupid, you know.

Thanks but I thought JC wants REBELS, or have I got it wrong?
For example his young cousin John was a world-rejecter living rough in the wilderness, sometimes going in town to yell insults at the snooty priests and corrupt rulers who later killed him.
Jesus's verdict on him?- "John is the greatest man ever to be born"

For example I googled this pic of John in action against Herod and his floozy-

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(July 9, 2017 at 5:26 am)ignoramus Wrote: So the creator of the universe came to the Middle East 2000 years ago to speak to a few toothless goat herders and has been hiding on toast, dog's arses and in mathematics since then?

Is there any reason at all why he can't come and show himself to us today? Like he did then? Unless of course he didn't really come down at all and those cheeky Arabs just made it all up!

A football coach doesn't keep running onto the pitch during games to instruct his players, rather he tells them the game plan before the match then goes to the sidelines to watch how they do.
Anyway Jesus said "I'll be back"  when the game's over..

(July 9, 2017 at 4:49 am)Dropship Wrote:

(July 8, 2017 at 9:09 am)Brian37 Wrote: ...An ethical scientist WILL NOT try to mix religion into their lab. 

Ah, but religionists will say that Jesus's 37 miracles were  science, or more specifically a "Superscience" that we know nothing about, and that to refuse to analyse them and push the bounds of scientific knowledge is therefore unethical in itself.
PS- JC also said we  could do the same sort of "miracles" too, so the subject clearly has hidden depths..

---

(July 8, 2017 at 2:11 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: Of course what the christards leave out is that as Dr Anthony Flew grew old he grew senile, and had the misfortune to fall in with a bunch of very manipulative and immoral christards who decided that it was better for them to make up Dr Flew's mind than the man himself.

If you read any of his later writings or talks which touched upon his "conversion" to theism, you'll see none of the lucidity or intelligence which permeated his earlier scientific work, and find a lot of the common points you'll see in bargain basement badly argued apologetics by the kind of christards that are now dictating his words.

Thanks, but it's not just Flew who says God can be "seen" in the maths, it's other scientists too, so we're caught in the middle not knowing whether to believe them or not.
For example here are a couple more quotes-
"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."-Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): The Universe: Past and Present Reflections. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics: 20:16.
　　
"As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"- George Greenstein (astronomer),1988. The Symbiotic Universe. New York: William Morrow, p.27 

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(July 8, 2017 at 2:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I'm no math dummy but I may be a total dummy where gods are concerned.  I've seen a little math but I've never seen a trace of god - either in the math or any where else.  On the other hand, I've found the phrase "In God we trust" engraved on money - and I do believe in money.  If your faith had been faltering maybe that will help you make it to the finish line.  But give up on the math, there is no God there.

Which brings us back to the old dilemma of whether we should believe scientists who say stuff like this-

"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe."- Galileo

"We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it.."- Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician),Gannes, S. October 13, 1986. Fortune. p. 57

"If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God."-Lord Kelvin (British scientist)
　
"We would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists"- Carl Sagan
　
"I cannot be sure that God does not exist"- Richard Dawkins

PS- Are my posts displaying alright? They seem to be running into other and it's hard to tell where one ends and another begins, plus the quote function further complicates the issue.

---

(July 8, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Succubus Wrote: No, there isn’t.

Thanks, so when scientists hint they can see God in the mathematical layout of the universe, are they wrong?

Probably.

(July 9, 2017 at 4:49 am)Dropship Wrote:

(July 8, 2017 at 2:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I'm no math dummy but I may be a total dummy where gods are concerned.  I've seen a little math but I've never seen a trace of god - either in the math or any where else.  On the other hand, I've found the phrase "In God we trust" engraved on money - and I do believe in money.  If your faith had been faltering maybe that will help you make it to the finish line.  But give up on the math, there is no God there.

Which brings us back to the old dilemma of whether we should believe scientists who say stuff like this-

"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe."- Galileo

"We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it.."- Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician),Gannes, S. October 13, 1986. Fortune. p. 57

"If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God."-Lord Kelvin (British scientist)
　
"We would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists"- Carl Sagan
　
"I cannot be sure that God does not exist"- Richard Dawkins

PS- Are my posts displaying alright? They seem to be running into other and it's hard to tell where one ends and another begins, plus the quote function further complicates the issue.

Your posts look fine to me.

As to why so many mathematicians see God in math it isn't very mysterious. Math and God are two of mankind's more ambitious creations. If one is brought up in religion one may well marvel at the 'divine' order of mathematics. But that would be a euphemism.

(July 9, 2017 at 8:10 am)Whateverist Wrote: 　 If one is brought up in religion one may well marvel at the 'divine' order of mathematics.  But that would be a euphemism.

You mean like when I give "1" to a lady? Or when she gives me "1,2". Yeah, number feels pretty good...It's so divine it's sacrilicious!

(July 9, 2017 at 8:23 am)ignoramus Wrote:

(July 9, 2017 at 8:10 am)Whateverist Wrote: 　 If one is brought up in religion one may well marvel at the 'divine' order of mathematics.  But that would be a euphemism.

You mean like when I give "1" to a lady? Or when she gives me "1,2". Yeah, number feels pretty good...It's so divine it's sacrilicious!

Yah, baby!  Yeah!

(July 9, 2017 at 4:49 am)Dropship Wrote:

(July 8, 2017 at 9:09 am)Brian37 Wrote: ...An ethical scientist WILL NOT try to mix religion into their lab. 

Ah, but religionists will say that Jesus's 37 miracles were  science, or more specifically a "Superscience" that we know nothing about, and that to refuse to analyse them and push the bounds of scientific knowledge is therefore unethical in itself.
PS- JC also said we  could do the same sort of "miracles" too, so the subject clearly has hidden depths..

---

(July 8, 2017 at 2:11 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: Of course what the christards leave out is that as Dr Anthony Flew grew old he grew senile, and had the misfortune to fall in with a bunch of very manipulative and immoral christards who decided that it was better for them to make up Dr Flew's mind than the man himself.

If you read any of his later writings or talks which touched upon his "conversion" to theism, you'll see none of the lucidity or intelligence which permeated his earlier scientific work, and find a lot of the common points you'll see in bargain basement badly argued apologetics by the kind of christards that are now dictating his words.

Thanks, but it's not just Flew who says God can be "seen" in the maths, it's other scientists too, so we're caught in the middle not knowing whether to believe them or not.
For example here are a couple more quotes-
"A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."-Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): The Universe: Past and Present Reflections. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics: 20:16.
　　
"As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"- George Greenstein (astronomer),1988. The Symbiotic Universe. New York: William Morrow, p.27 

---

---

(July 8, 2017 at 2:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I'm no math dummy but I may be a total dummy where gods are concerned.  I've seen a little math but I've never seen a trace of god - either in the math or any where else.  On the other hand, I've found the phrase "In God we trust" engraved on money - and I do believe in money.  If your faith had been faltering maybe that will help you make it to the finish line.  But give up on the math, there is no God there.

Which brings us back to the old dilemma of whether we should believe scientists who say stuff like this-

"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe."- Galileo

"We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it.."- Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician),Gannes, S. October 13, 1986. Fortune. p. 57

"If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God."-Lord Kelvin (British scientist)
　
"We would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists"- Carl Sagan
　
"I cannot be sure that God does not exist"- Richard Dawkins

PS- Are my posts displaying alright? They seem to be running into other and it's hard to tell where one ends and another begins, plus the quote function further complicates the issue.

---

(July 8, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Succubus Wrote: No, there isn’t.

Thanks, so when scientists hint they can see God in the mathematical layout of the universe, are they wrong?

Knock it off idiot!

EVERY DAMNED RELIGION IN THE WORLD pulls the same shit. Now, do yourself a favor, pull the puppet master hand out of your back, THINK FOR YOURSELF.

Go back to my prior post with the google searches of OTHER religions who ALSO try to get science to point to their respective clubs. If you are NOT willing to do that, all you are doing is jacking off over your own desires.

We also have  Muslim here named Altas, while I like him, he too has tried to justify the Koran with science. It does not work when ANY religion tries to pull this crap. 

NO, there is no such thing as a magic baby with super powers born without a second set of DNA. Human beings do not have all the blood drained out of their body, suffer complete organ and brain death only to magically become a zombie god.

We GET it that you like what you believe. We get it that you want your sky hero to be real. BUT it is merely all in your head. It was understandable when people didn't know any better back then, and people wrote that crap and sold that crap, but we have far better tools now to observe nature and the universe.

DNA is not the invention of a fictional sky wizard in the same way you accept hurricanes are not the cause of the ocean God Poseidon, for the same reason your rightfully accept that Thor IS NOT the cause of lightening and Thunder.

We promise you there is no cosmic dictator that will smite you or strike you down if you realize you got it wrong. Just like kids can survive finally knowing Santa isn't real.

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And the FLEW crap has been repeatedly DEBUNKED. It is bullshit to take the word of someone in mental decline due to brain disease.

If I had dementia or Alzehiemers or brain cancer and was doped up on morphine(notorious for causing hallucinations) or any heavy pain med, and I said to you "I saw George Washington fart a Lamborghini out of his ass", would you stupidly blindly believe me?

FLEW was taken advantage of under mental decline by asshole opportunists looking for attention.

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My mother died March 1rst this year and I watched her slowly decline over multiple weeks and day after day until that final day, they kept her doped up to ease the pain. i watched her talk to people that were not there and mumble about things she thought she was seeing that were not there. 

When your brain gets affected by ANYTHING and starts getting damaged by ANYTHING like cancer, alzhimers, dementia or even infection, the more brain cells that get damaged the less lucid the person is and it only gets worse in the final stages of death, add to that heavy pain meds, it is a very frightening thing to the person going through it, as well as the person watching it. But none of reality is a the result of a cosmic super hero vs a super villain. It sucks that it happens. I hated losing my mom. But I will not live a delusion and forgo reality and cling to mythology and delude myself.

I cannot change her death, but mythology is not what keeps me going. Her life is. I don't need for her, or me some fictional promise of a afterlife anymore than either of us had a pre life. Her memory is what keeps me going. I had a friend come to visit me last month to help spread her ashes. I know that while it was a sad event, she also would have been thrilled and happy for me to spend time with him. She wouldn't want me crying everyday forever. I don't need a sky hero to value the finite time humans have. Death sucks and it can hurt, but there is no magic to it.

What keeps me going is knowing all the good she did as a teacher for over 30 years. What keeps me going is that we grew really close as we got older. What keeps me going were all the inside jokes we created over the years. What keeps me going are all the great things she did for me, like baking all the unique birthday cakes growing up. Or putting me through college and buying me a house. Our rubber duckies, our silly car games we would invent. Just taking her out for whatever. Watching Ohio State games or Redskins games together.

I don't need to swallow old mythology to get me through tough times. My mom printed out a famous saying for me and it still holds true, "Don't cry because it is over, smile because it happened". Yea, I still cried and  no, you never get over it, but you also don't wallow in it forever either.

There is no God required to explain why good or bad happen. Nobody likes bad things happening no, I certainly would still want my mom here. But she is a real hero, not a fictional one.