(July 10, 2017 at 3:36 pm)JackRussell Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 3:31 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Generally speaking, people who do not follow a religious tradition and may not even believe in gods as entities - but do feel or believe in some sort of inneffable, commonly supernatural, "x" or spirit permeating the world around them.  Any animist, most neopagans, assorted shamans and fortune tellers and ritualists fit this descriptor.  All deists fit. Some theists - but it's a stretch on that count.

Ok, fine, but why should any rational person accept this too. Wonder and the numinous as experiential can be understood perfectly naturally as well.

Who's to say we don't understand it rationally?

So, continuing on that... I wonder too...where the line is drawn, with regards to the supernatural, for those that believe.  When does something stop being simply inexplicabnle, and cross over into magic?  

Most people who believe in the supernatural couldn't explain why a particular bird lands on a particular shingle of their roof.  Is that magic?  Why not?  How would they know either way?  There's got to be some lonely bird-watching soul out there who sees the purple crested boobywharbler for the first time in their miserable lives and feels a sense of the numinous...is it magic then?  

These are the questions, lol.

(July 10, 2017 at 3:11 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I've already provided the usage I and many others go by.

I'm more than familiar with the 'usage', it’s a definition I'm looking for.

I don't define it any different than I understand it.

(July 10, 2017 at 4:16 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 4:06 pm)JackRussell Wrote: Did man go to the moon? Can that be evidenced? That was numinous to me , we stepped toward the stars, but irrational fools disbelieve this.  Were does one draw the line?

Moon hoaxers are odd birds, aren't they?  It's one of those things where there seems to be no specific impetus to claim an elaborate conspiracy - and yet.

So true, the whole conspiracy thing has kind of taken off since I was a kid. (1970's). We now have 9/11 truths, anti-vaxxers,, alien landings, flat-earth and so many more.

The interesting thing to my mid is that they all play on a form of religious belief. And that kind of informs my understanding of older beliefs too.

Evidence baby, Science, it works biatches.

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(July 10, 2017 at 4:23 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 3:36 pm)JackRussell Wrote: Ok, fine, but why should any rational person accept this too. Wonder and the numinous as experiential can be understood perfectly naturally as well.

Who's to say we don't understand it rationally?

Well, rationality needs to be demonstrated. Perhaps I should have said could be presented rationally and with good evidence. But i get your point, I think. I'm not too bright though, coz atheist.

(July 10, 2017 at 4:25 pm)JackRussell Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 4:16 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Moon hoaxers are odd birds, aren't they?  It's one of those things where there seems to be no specific impetus to claim an elaborate conspiracy - and yet.

So true, the whole conspiracy thing has kind of taken off since I was a kid. (1970's). We now have 9/11 truths, anti-vaxxers,, alien landings, flat-earth and so many more.

The interesting thing to my mid is that they all play on a form of religious belief. And that kind of informs my understanding of older beliefs too.

Evidence baby, Science, it works biatches.

---

(July 10, 2017 at 4:23 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Who's to say we don't understand it rationally?

Well, rationality needs to be demonstrated. Perhaps I should have said could be presented rationally and with good evidence. But i get your point, I think. I'm not too bright though, coz atheist.

Nothing about my own sense of spirituality asks me to abandon facts, evidence, or reason.

If it's atheism that makes a person dumb, you need to move over so I can sit there too.

(July 10, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 4:25 pm)JackRussell Wrote: So true, the whole conspiracy thing has kind of taken off since I was a kid. (1970's). We now have 9/11 truths, anti-vaxxers,, alien landings, flat-earth and so many more.

The interesting thing to my mid is that they all play on a form of religious belief. And that kind of informs my understanding of older beliefs too.

Evidence baby, Science, it works biatches.

---

Well, rationality needs to be demonstrated. Perhaps I should have said could be presented rationally and with good evidence. But i get your point, I think. I'm not too bright though, coz atheist.

Nothing about my own sense of spirituality asks me to abandon facts, evidence, or reason.

If it's atheism that makes a person dumb, you need to move over so I can sit there too.

I'm happy to be dumb and admit I don't know things. Happy to share that dumbness with anyone that cares to admit that too. I would like to know what's actually true, and the only way I know how to do that is good, substantiated evidence. But quite happy to admit I am not the smartest sandwich in life's picnic. Would rather have friends and good conversations..

(July 10, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 4:25 pm)JackRussell Wrote: So true, the whole conspiracy thing has kind of taken off since I was a kid. (1970's). We now have 9/11 truths, anti-vaxxers,, alien landings, flat-earth and so many more.

The interesting thing to my mid is that they all play on a form of religious belief. And that kind of informs my understanding of older beliefs too.

Evidence baby, Science, it works biatches.

---

Well, rationality needs to be demonstrated. Perhaps I should have said could be presented rationally and with good evidence. But i get your point, I think. I'm not too bright though, coz atheist.

Nothing about my own sense of spirituality asks me to abandon facts, evidence, or reason.

If it's atheism that makes a person dumb, you need to move over so I can sit there too.

You can use the word "spirituality" all you wish, nobody should stop you.

But to me that is no different than when right and left wingers argue over the New Testament vs the Old. Or when Sunnis argue with Shiites, or when Zionists argue with Jews, or when Tibet Buddhists argue with Chinese Buddhists or Japanese Shinto Buddhists.

Yea, everyone has their own interpretation. 

I know you are not going to go on a killing spree like the Christians of the Crusades or Isis, but waterdown woo is still woo.

It is definitely anyone's choice in a free society to "interpret" things the way the like. But knowing our planet was around long before, and that our planet and sun will die 5 billion years from now, what is far more important to me than our divisions is that more understand that our ride is finite.

Spirituality, in and of itself, doesn't have anything to do with any of those religious traditions or any disagreement between them.....hell, it predates them. The first red ochre burial was indicative of spirituality...and yet nary a Jesi or Mighty Mo would be found for another..what, 50k years (and perhaps 300k............no shit)?

Spirituality isn't watered down woo, or chisterism, woo and christerism is misplaced spirituality. It was the template, not the knockoff. At least get the order right if you're going to rant.

(July 10, 2017 at 4:54 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Nothing about my own sense of spirituality asks me to abandon facts, evidence, or reason.

If it's atheism that makes a person dumb, you need to move over so I can sit there too.

You can use the word "spirituality" all you wish, nobody should stop you.

But to me that is no different than when right and left wingers argue over the New Testament vs the Old. Or when Sunnis argue with Shiites, or when Zionists argue with Jews, or when Tibet Buddhists argue with Chinese Buddhists or Japanese Shinto Buddhists.

Yea, everyone has their own interpretation. 

I know you are not going to go on a killing spree like the Christians of the Crusades or Isis, but waterdown woo is still woo.

It is definitely anyone's choice in a free society to "interpret" things the way the like. But knowing our planet was around long before, and that our planet and sun will die 5 billion years from now, what is far more important to me than our divisions is that more understand that our ride is finite.

If you prefer to remain hung up on the word, that's your business.

(July 10, 2017 at 4:16 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(July 10, 2017 at 4:06 pm)JackRussell Wrote: Did man go to the moon? Can that be evidenced? That was numinous to me , we stepped toward the stars, but irrational fools disbelieve this.  Were does one draw the line?

Moon hoaxers are odd birds, aren't they?  It's one of those things where there seems to be no specific impetus to claim an elaborate conspiracy - and yet.

It is the sense of specialness from laying claim to hidden knowledge -- of having a leg up, of understanding things that few others do. That's almost all it is in that case. There's some element of that in all claims of esoteric understanding, including religious claims -- it partly explains the pull of the more fringe religious ideologies, too, despite their being unpopular or having onerous proscriptions to deal with. The lesser sense of belonging to something bigger to yourself in smaller sects is offset by the thrill of being "in on the ground floor", part of a more "select" group, being a part of which makes you wiser, smarter, and/or luckier.

It also selects for a certain type of personality that's prone to Schadenfreude -- taking pleasure in the comeuppance that outsiders will supposdly experience -- imagining that, at last, you'll not be on the outside looking in, those OTHERS will. That's one of the reason that doomsday cults seldom think the world is going to be around for long, it means you'll likely live to see that comeuppance.