The need to believe?

[mordant]

They may never agree..regardless of whether or not you count yourself among the believing.  I've never met a person, personally, in all of my life...and I've never seen a person on these boards....and I've never even heard of a -story- of a person who...by believing, brought accord between those two.  We believe, and still feel conflicted.  We do not believe, and still feel conflicted.  We -disbelieve-....and still feel conflicted.

This. You have no idea how this ^^^ has helped me. You disbelieve, yet also at times, are conflicted. My atheist friends offline don't share their conflicts, so I assume that they have none with their position. But, while I'm not happy that you and others experience this, I'm grateful that this might just be a human thing, and I'm not all that out there for feeling this. 

Oh, it's totally a "human thing". I have not regressed to theism at any time since leaving it but it was nevertheless a loss that I had to grieve like any other loss. For many believers it's a loss of most of their social support system; they go from insiders to incurring the wrath sometimes of church and family and friends. I was luckier than that by far ... no huge social consequences, but I found I had long-established habits like praying about little things throughout the day, which was a somewhat calming / centering to do and it took me a long time to be at peace with the notion that no one was listening or reacting to that. I knew that was true intellectually, but dropping the "arrow prayers" was highly symbolic, and the human mind deals in symbols.

So sure you have little doubts / regrets now and then until you re-acclimate fully. Atheism is a "new reality" or "new normal". A new relationship with reality, actually. It takes some getting used to. No sane person would deny that, although it's been my experience that in the long run, it's a far better relationship with reality.

[Thumpalumpacus]

My sense of spirituality is simply a sense of being connected to something unimaginably larger than myself -- the Universe. It requires no faith on my part to feel that humility, and no woo for me to find comfort in it.

I never use the word "spirituality", it is highly subjective and started in a very superstitious past.

So what? Words are repurposed all the time. That's the word that fits my obviously subjective feelings. Whether or not you agree with my usage, enough people are generous enough to extend to me understanding when I use it this way that I find the word itself useful. I'm doing so in this case because I think Deidre understands my usage, and I was trying to communicate my take on it in reply to her question. You're welcome to see it this way or not as you see fit, but applying your definition to my sense of it is obviously inaccurate (as I've already made clear in the post which has garnered this reply of yours).

I get the same feelings too. But that to me is merely my body having a positive reaction to stimuli. My "sense of awe" and yes, that can be intense.

But knowing that while the universe has some really awesome things in it, it also has lots of extremely destructive and deadly things in it too. I am extremely amazed with all the countless factors that could have ended up with a different result but didn't, that we are here. But I see no grand design in the universe and do not see it as a giant living thing. I simply see both the good and the bad in it as natural with no super cognition behind it. But certainly our planet and universe have some damned amazing things in it, certainly.

Yeah, as I already said, I attach no faith nor woo to the word in my usage. If it still offends you, oh well. Your offense is not my responsibility.

---

My sense of spirituality is simply a sense of being connected to something unimaginably larger than myself -- the Universe. It requires no faith on my part to feel that humility, and no woo for me to find comfort in it.

I wish I could give you 1000 kudos! I love this, it has the makings of a great religion. 

Oh wait



No seriously though, I think this is how I'm feeling and the need in me to call it god, well it's just a need in me based on habit.

Call it what you will, ma'am. You're a good person and that's what is really important so far as I'm concerned. I know how hard it was for me when I lost my faith ... so I don't hold anyone else's struggles with preconceived or preprogrammed notions against them.

---

So sure you have little doubts / regrets now and then until you re-acclimate fully. Atheism is a "new reality" or "new normal". A new relationship with reality, actually. It takes some getting used to. No sane person would deny that, although it's been my experience that in the long run, it's a far better relationship with reality.

I spent the first five years of my disbelief wandering through fields of woo and charlatanism and other forms of superstition. Dispensing with my beliefs wasn't hard, but dispensing with the need to believe was indeed difficult. And to Khem's point, I do find myself at times thinking, "Of course I don't believe this crap any more, but what about this coincidence, or that lucky ending ... and that old siren song still clearly echoes in my brain. And I've been an atheist for almost four decades. "What are the odds?!" I ask myself. And then, well, I pick up a calculator and get to work.

[*Deidre*]

This. You have no idea how this ^^^ has helped me. You disbelieve, yet also at times, are conflicted. My atheist friends offline don't share their conflicts, so I assume that they have none with their position. But, while I'm not happy that you and others experience this, I'm grateful that this might just be a human thing, and I'm not all that out there for feeling this. 

Oh, it's totally a "human thing". I have not regressed to theism at any time since leaving it but it was nevertheless a loss that I had to grieve like any other loss. For many believers it's a loss of most of their social support system; they go from insiders to incurring the wrath sometimes of church and family and friends. I was luckier than that by far ... no huge social consequences, but I found I had long-established habits like praying about little things throughout the day, which was a somewhat calming / centering to do and it took me a long time to be at peace with the notion that no one was listening or reacting to that. I knew that was true intellectually, but dropping the "arrow prayers" was highly symbolic, and the human mind deals in symbols.

So sure you have little doubts / regrets now and then until you re-acclimate fully. Atheism is a "new reality" or "new normal". A new relationship with reality, actually. It takes some getting used to. No sane person would deny that, although it's been my experience that in the long run, it's a far better relationship with reality.

I like your posts, mordant. A relationship with reality, I like that. 
You're a wise man.

---

I never use the word "spirituality", it is highly subjective and started in a very superstitious past.

So what? Words are repurposed all the time. That's the word that fits my obviously subjective feelings. Whether or not you agree with my usage, enough people are generous enough to extend to me understanding when I use it this way that I find the word itself useful. I'm doing so in this case because I think Deidre understands my usage, and I was trying to communicate my take on it in reply to her question. You're welcome to see it this way or not as you see fit, but applying your definition to my sense of it is obviously inaccurate (as I've already made clear in the post which has garnered this reply of yours).

I get the same feelings too. But that to me is merely my body having a positive reaction to stimuli. My "sense of awe" and yes, that can be intense.

But knowing that while the universe has some really awesome things in it, it also has lots of extremely destructive and deadly things in it too. I am extremely amazed with all the countless factors that could have ended up with a different result but didn't, that we are here. But I see no grand design in the universe and do not see it as a giant living thing. I simply see both the good and the bad in it as natural with no super cognition behind it. But certainly our planet and universe have some damned amazing things in it, certainly.

Yeah, as I already said, I attach no faith nor woo to the word in my usage. If it still offends you, oh well. Your offense is not my responsibility.

---

I wish I could give you 1000 kudos! I love this, it has the makings of a great religion. 

Oh wait



No seriously though, I think this is how I'm feeling and the need in me to call it god, well it's just a need in me based on habit.

Call it what you will, ma'am. You're a good person and that's what is really important so far as I'm concerned. I know how hard it was for me when I lost my faith ... so I don't hold anyone else's struggles with preconceived or preprogrammed notions against them.

---

So sure you have little doubts / regrets now and then until you re-acclimate fully. Atheism is a "new reality" or "new normal". A new relationship with reality, actually. It takes some getting used to. No sane person would deny that, although it's been my experience that in the long run, it's a far better relationship with reality.

I spent the first five years of my disbelief wandering through fields of woo and charlatanism and other forms of superstition. Dispensing with my beliefs wasn't hard, but dispensing with the need to believe was indeed difficult. And to Khem's point, I do find myself at times thinking, "Of course I don't believe this crap any more, but what about this coincidence, or that lucky ending ... and that old siren song still clearly echoes in my brain. And I've been an atheist for almost four decades. "What are the odds?!" I ask myself. And then, well, I pick up a calculator and get to work.

It's these types of responses I was hopeful of when creating this thread. I felt for the most part, great, when I was an atheist, until I was faced with an everyday challenge such as my grandmother becoming ill and then dying. But even people of faith struggle with death, maybe just making sense of not seeing your loved one anymore, and just coping with that void. That void that I started scurrying to fill, and yet felt like I was leaving something that made sense to me (atheism), on a different level than religion or faith ever did. Faith doesn't make sense at all, and maybe it doesn't have to, but it's almost like you have to let go of part of yourself that makes you....you. And that is your intellect. Faith makes me feel good, secure, and comforted, but then it also causes me to wonder why so many people who believe are tortured for their faith, or why faith tests us. It seems like things we tell ourselves as believers to get through the tough times. The tough times come whether you're a believer or not, and faith doesn't make them easier, I'm finding. I think that's why I'm back at a crossroads because it's not promising what it used to. Or maybe I'm seeing it more for what it is, my clinging to thoughts that used to serve me well when I stopped questioning. As long as I don't question......

I'm glad you shared this.

---

I don't know what I'm doing wrong with quotes anymore. But, hope that ^^ makes sense. lol!

[*Deidre*]

Hey Deidre, thanks for sharing your experiences. Your self-awareness does you credit as does your willingness to confront your emotional needs; alongside the journeys for truth and purpose, this is a quest that can last a lifetime. This sort of conversation can be deep and intensely personal so I promise I'll be gentle

To your key question, of course it's possible to be a spiritual atheist. You already are and you're not alone. As I'm sure you know, many existing religions are atheistic as are the non-denominational new-age spiritualists. For example Gaianists celebrate the world as a systemic entity and presuppose a single global consciousness but Gaia isn't a god.

The question I would ask you, and encourage you to seek answers for, is how important is the truth to you? That is to say, armed with the knowledge you have regarding the likelihood of the existence of supernatural propositions, how do you intend to address the disconnect between how you feel and what can be demonstrated about the universe? That question will ultimately bring you face to face with your fear of mortality and you're already aware of the way religions can manipulate that fear to their own advantage. You're keenly aware that you're fighting a battle with your indoctrination and that's half the victory right there!

When all's said and done, some people will compartmentalise their supernatural beliefs to protect their comfort zone and avoid the conflict whilst others will seek to address the conflict and either become religious or lose those beliefs. Wherever your journey takes you is okay as long as you're honest with yourself and for what it's worth, in that regard, I think you'll be fine.

Hey Ben, and thanks for your thoughts. You pose a good question - how important is the truth? I think that to the best of anyone's knowledge, it's safe to say no one really knows with certainty, one way or the other, if a deity exists. That said, intellectually...I feel comfortable not believing in a god. But the heart sometimes makes up its own truth, if that makes sense. I have to stop living for my emotions, though. We're not slaves to our emotions, and that's likely why so many religions can manipulate people, it preys on our vulnerabilities and emotions. As an atheist, I felt honest with myself, yet emotionally a bit empty. In faith, I feel intellectually dishonest (to be honest), and emotionally a bit better. Less empty, but not necessarily ''full.'' I just don't want to live on a fence, that's all.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's these types of responses I was hopeful of when creating this thread. I felt for the most part, great, when I was an atheist, until I was faced with an everyday challenge such as my grandmother becoming ill and then dying. But even people of faith struggle with death, maybe just making sense of not seeing your loved one anymore, and just coping with that void. That void that I started scurrying to fill, and yet felt like I was leaving something that made sense to me (atheism), on a different level than religion or faith ever did. Faith doesn't make sense at all, and maybe it doesn't have to, but it's almost like you have to let go of part of yourself that makes you....you. And that is your intellect. Faith makes me feel good, secure, and comforted, but then it also causes me to wonder why so many people who believe are tortured for their faith, or why faith tests us. It seems like things we tell ourselves as believers to get through the tough times. The tough times come whether you're a believer or not, and faith doesn't make them easier, I'm finding. I think that's why I'm back at a crossroads because it's not promising what it used to. Or maybe I'm seeing it more for what it is, my clinging to thoughts that used to serve me well when I stopped questioning. As long as I don't question......

Myself, I find that void filled with simple love. In hard times, I turn to my family, my woman, my friends, and don't worry even what I myself think. And even love doesn't always make things easier -- it only makes them easier to deal with.

My Certain Someone and I were talking just earlier about the limits of logic. I'm of the mind that emotion has just as rightful a place in the human experience as logic and reason, and I make no apologies, even to myself, when on this or that occasion I cotton to emotion rather than reason. And I love her because she accepts both sides of me -- and, if I may so speak, shares them herself.

In my life I strive for balance, and that includes a balance between emotion and reason. Sometimes logic and reason are the right tools for the job, and sometimes love and empathy are. I'm old enough that I've come to trust my instincts about it, and while they do sometimes steer me wrong, those occasions are fewer and fewer.

Trust yourself, and let the scales balance naturally for you, D.

Let the truth of love be lighted
Let the love of truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with sense and liberty
With the heart and mind united in a single perfect sphere

[Brian37]

I never use the word "spirituality", it is highly subjective and started in a very superstitious past.

So what? Words are repurposed all the time. That's the word that fits my obviously subjective feelings. Whether or not you agree with my usage, enough people are generous enough to extend to me understanding when I use it this way that I find the word itself useful. I'm doing so in this case because I think Deidre understands my usage, and I was trying to communicate my take on it in reply to her question. You're welcome to see it this way or not as you see fit, but applying your definition to my sense of it is obviously inaccurate (as I've already made clear in the post which has garnered this reply of yours).

I get the same feelings too. But that to me is merely my body having a positive reaction to stimuli. My "sense of awe" and yes, that can be intense.

But knowing that while the universe has some really awesome things in it, it also has lots of extremely destructive and deadly things in it too. I am extremely amazed with all the countless factors that could have ended up with a different result but didn't, that we are here. But I see no grand design in the universe and do not see it as a giant living thing. I simply see both the good and the bad in it as natural with no super cognition behind it. But certainly our planet and universe have some damned amazing things in it, certainly.

Yeah, as I already said, I attach no faith nor woo to the word in my usage. If it still offends you, oh well. Your offense is not my responsibility.

---

I wish I could give you 1000 kudos! I love this, it has the makings of a great religion. 

Oh wait



No seriously though, I think this is how I'm feeling and the need in me to call it god, well it's just a need in me based on habit.

Call it what you will, ma'am. You're a good person and that's what is really important so far as I'm concerned. I know how hard it was for me when I lost my faith ... so I don't hold anyone else's struggles with preconceived or preprogrammed notions against them.

---

So sure you have little doubts / regrets now and then until you re-acclimate fully. Atheism is a "new reality" or "new normal". A new relationship with reality, actually. It takes some getting used to. No sane person would deny that, although it's been my experience that in the long run, it's a far better relationship with reality.

I spent the first five years of my disbelief wandering through fields of woo and charlatanism and other forms of superstition. Dispensing with my beliefs wasn't hard, but dispensing with the need to believe was indeed difficult. And to Khem's point, I do find myself at times thinking, "Of course I don't believe this crap any more, but what about this coincidence, or that lucky ending ... and that old siren song still clearly echoes in my brain. And I've been an atheist for almost four decades. "What are the odds?!" I ask myself. And then, well, I pick up a calculator and get to work.

Nobody is arguing you are not entitled to your own beliefs, that is a legal matter. You should, FOR YOURSELF, not me, be willing to self examine to insure what you hold to be fact, is just that, fact. You certainly are not obligated by law to switch to my position because I say so. But others are not obligated to simply swallow it because you claim it. Nor are others obligated to never respond to your claims because you like what you believe.

What "offends" me isn't human rights. But bad logic does. 

I'll even argue with other atheists about bad logic too. 

You personally may not attach woo or faith to the word "spiritual" no. I am not arguing how you personally use the word. But to me that is no different than when a Muslim woman in the west argues that she isn't being forced to wear a Hijab. That still would not change the history of that garment and it's sexist roots and in other parts of the world she would be forced without consent. 

"Spirituality" is an old word rooted in superstition, there is no polite way to put it. Your new interpretation or desire to water it down, does not change that far more people in the world are far more traditional and superstitious and view the word in a very literal magic way.

Now, it is still your choice to continue to use it, sure. But that does not change the facts that others do still to this day use it in a very superstitious way. 

I don't use that word myself precisely because it has so much baggage. I simply chalk the really neat stuff to a very intense sense of awe.

[Whateverist]

So what? Words are repurposed all the time. That's the word that fits my obviously subjective feelings. Whether or not you agree with my usage, enough people are generous enough to extend to me understanding when I use it this way that I find the word itself useful. I'm doing so in this case because I think Deidre understands my usage, and I was trying to communicate my take on it in reply to her question. You're welcome to see it this way or not as you see fit, but applying your definition to my sense of it is obviously inaccurate (as I've already made clear in the post which has garnered this reply of yours).


Yeah, as I already said, I attach no faith nor woo to the word in my usage. If it still offends you, oh well. Your offense is not my responsibility.

---

Call it what you will, ma'am. You're a good person and that's what is really important so far as I'm concerned. I know how hard it was for me when I lost my faith ... so I don't hold anyone else's struggles with preconceived or preprogrammed notions against them.

---

I spent the first five years of my disbelief wandering through fields of woo and charlatanism and other forms of superstition. Dispensing with my beliefs wasn't hard, but dispensing with the need to believe was indeed difficult. And to Khem's point, I do find myself at times thinking, "Of course I don't believe this crap any more, but what about this coincidence, or that lucky ending ... and that old siren song still clearly echoes in my brain. And I've been an atheist for almost four decades. "What are the odds?!" I ask myself. And then, well, I pick up a calculator and get to work.

Nobody is arguing you are not entitled to your own beliefs, that is a legal matter.

Pretty sure there are zero places in the world where there are statutes agains holding our own belief.

You should, FOR YOURSELF, not me, be willing to self examine to insure what you hold to be fact, is just that, fact. You certainly are not obligated by law to switch to my position because I say so. But others are not obligated to simply swallow it because you claim it. Nor are others obligated to never respond to your claims because you like what you believe.

How fortunate we all are to have someone on these boards who knows better what we need to than we do ourselves. This comes off as sooooo pompous. And again with the law-talk. What's that about?

What "offends" me isn't human rights. But bad logic does.

Weird. Why? You assume everyone is perfectly capable of handling logic well but then blows it just to piss you off?
 

You personally may not attach woo or faith to the word "spiritual" no. I am not arguing how you personally use the word. But to me that is no different than when a Muslim woman in the west argues that she isn't being forced to wear a Hijab. That still would not change the history of that garment and it's sexist roots and in other parts of the world she would be forced without consent.

I don't know about how you are with logic but your facility with analogies is seriously suspect.

"Spirituality" is an old word rooted in superstition, there is no polite way to put it. Your new interpretation or desire to water it down, does not change that far more people in the world are far more traditional and superstitious and view the word in a very literal magic way.

Now, it is still your choice to continue to use it, sure. But that does not change the facts that others do still to this day use it in a very superstitious way. 

I don't use that word myself precisely because it has so much baggage. I simply chalk the really neat stuff to a very intense sense of awe.

You sure do go from your own idiosyncrasies to pronouncements regarding what everyone SHOULD do about as quickly as any theist. It's almost as if you got rid of the god belief but kept the fundamentalist mindset. Why do that?

[The Grand Nudger]

This. You have no idea how this ^^^ has helped me. You disbelieve, yet also at times, are conflicted. My atheist friends offline don't share their conflicts, so I assume that they have none with their position. But, while I'm not happy that you and others experience this, I'm grateful that this might just be a human thing, and I'm not all that out there for feeling this. 

Told you that we would likely have analogs.  

I'm pretty sure that my auger is trying to kill me.  I cuss out wrenches for being metric or standard (whichever one I grabbed when I should have grabbed the other) like they were adult human beings.  I -know- this can't be the case...but I feel it nevertheless.  We project our sense of being out into the world onto inanimate objects and even out into empty space.   Sometimes I get drunk, go to the creek, build a cairn, and talk to the ripples. Other times a weir, taunting the fish.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Some points to keep in mind:

1. All Gods are imaginary. It wouldn't matter if one or more or if even all of them existed they would still be imaginary because not one of any kind has even shown itself to humanity. So everyone just iagines that should entities exist.

2. The biblical God is Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies. Therefore if anyone claims to believe in the biblical God that's the God that he believes in.

3. All deities are ethnocentric. There aren't any that are not racist in behavior or attitude. The biblical God is extremely ethnocentric. When he wasn't actively killing Gentiles he ignored them and treated them like dirt.

4. So, when someone says that they believe in the biblical God they are just believing in his imagination. But that's true for everyone who believes in any type of God.

[Succubus]

For those who are of a  "spiritual but not religious" nature, please define spiritual.
No snippage of previous posts please; I'm looking for a definition of 'spiritual'.