And very much depends on what you mean by nothing


http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/468

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4973

Why a multiverse is more probable then god

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11288

(July 23, 2017 at 6:57 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: And very much depends on what you mean by nothing


http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/468

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4973

Why a multiverse is more probable then god

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11288

I find it interesting that WLC, in his debate with Sean Carroll in 2014, never brought-up the topic of the so-called absurdities of "actual infinities".

(July 24, 2017 at 7:32 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(July 23, 2017 at 6:57 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: And very much depends on what you mean by nothing


http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/468

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4973

Why a multiverse is more probable then god

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11288

I find it interesting that WLC, in his debate with Sean Carroll in 2014, never brought-up the topic of the so-called absurdities of "actual infinities".

To be fair they were not debating metaphysics

(July 22, 2017 at 7:22 am)mordant Wrote:

(July 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: 2. The better test is to discuss the probability of the evidence you see if the events had not transpired as reported. Also, there is no conflicting/rebutting evidence. No group of eyewitnesses ever came forward and reported that they were there and these things didn't happen and, no one ever mentions/refers such a group.

Well we don't think that a three-legged squid descended from heaven 3000 years ago to enlighten humanity, despite that no one ever came forward and said it DIDN'T happen.

In any case you may be surprised to find out that I contend that we are living in a world where these events DIDN'T transpire as reported. Unlike you I am not in the least impressed that people believe something that is concocted. Happens all the time. Leeches my friend, leeches. Common belief is no evidence that the belief is true. Even the canard that people are willing to die for a belief is no evidence that it's true (witness Islamic suicide bombers).

I'm sure that's what you think. However, the probability of all the events following Christ's death/resurrection (people, churches, Q, letters, gospels, second century writers, etc.) happening as they did are very low if the events did not happen as related. I have never heard a good evidenced explanation from an atheist why we see what we do. Just half-baked conspiracy theories and "people where gullible back then" scenarios. Neither addressing hardly any of the details.  

Quote:

(July 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: Regardless of your opinion on the evidence, you are talking about assessing the evidence needed to satisfy your personal threshold for proof. I understand that is not the case for you. But the evidence has been sufficient for billions of others.

It is insufficient for tens of millions of others too. Neither fact speaks to the validity of the evidence or the arguments pro and con.

If I made the argument that the facts are true because billions of people believed, then you point is correct. I did not, so it does not apply to my point. 

Quote:

(July 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: Well, since [the Pali Canon] was written 454 years after Buddha's death, you can hardly say that eyewitnesses were instrumental in the recording of those events.

Absent your low bar of what constitutes an "eyewitness" neither can you.

Do you honestly think there is a comparison to be made between the historicity of the events of Jesus (and aftermath) and that of Buddha? 454 years is 18 generations of people relating stories before someone wrote it all down. Paul was sharpening his pencil to write to the pre-existing churches across the empire, pre-gospel document(s) existed, and people were going on missionary journeys to tell of their eyewitness experience 18 years after Jesus. 

Quote:

(July 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: Question begging. The only reason you are saying they are not 'properly substantiated' is because of the miraculous content.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary substantiation. That is a basic principle. If I claim to be married, that's not extraordinary and you're inclined to accept it as fact unless and until you know something that argues against it. But if I claim to be married to a woman who turns water into wine and rose from the dead, you'd be disinclined to believe it until you know something that argues FOR it.

It is not a basic principle! While it sounds intuitive, it is not well-grounded. First, 'extraordinary' is very subjective and has to do with what a person knows or believes. In the extreme example of a person knowing nothing, everything would be extraordinary. Second, it is simple probability theory that you can examine what is the probability of having the effect of a miracle (say hundreds of eyewitnesses see X) if the event they witnessed did not really happen.  Third, you are still question begging because you are discounting eyewitness testimony for the only reason that you believe miracles are not possible. We are justified in preferring a naturalistic explanation--all things being equal. We are not justified in insisting on one. 

Quote:

(July 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: Who said the gospels were anonymously written? Do you think that the person who wrote it out the first time was not known to the recipients of the written document?

Other than by traditional attribution we have no idea who wrote the gospels. That's a simple fact. They aren't known to US who are examining the claims NOW.

You fail to explain why a name is important. Do you think the documents were secretly left on the doorstep of someone and were stumbled upon in the morning? Of course the people who first read and copied them knew the provenance. It was the content that was important. Labeling them "anonymous" is inaccurate and intentionally pejorative. 

Quote:

(July 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: If you actually study systematic theology, the gospels do not disagree with each other and with Paul on matters of theology. 

I was raised on Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology and I know all the circumlocutions around the disagreements of FACT. As to disagreements of theology, there are enough disagreements between Paul and the gospels alone to drive a truck through. Read the oldest of Paul's writings and then work through the NT chronologically and pretend while reading Paul, that you're a contemporary reader who is unaware of the gospels (because they don't exist yet). Here you have Paul appealing, not to eyewitnesses that (unlike later when the gospels appeared) were still mostly alive and yet to who or what does Paul appeal to "authenticate" his claims? A personal subjective experience, a heavenly vision. Odd. And how does he describe Jesus? As "seated in the heavenlies" No mention of the later mythos of the flesh-and-blood god-man working miracles. It's almost like Paul was promulgating the gnostic heresy and a different orthodoxy later won out over it. These contrasts between Paul and the gospel accounts would have been confusing to people in the 1st century but when the canon of scripture was eventually organized, by the simple device of putting the gospels first, front, and center, Paul can be interpreted in the "context" of the much later gospel writings and thus "harmonized" with them based on assumptions that didn't exist for Paul's original readers.

What were the main theological differences between Paul and Jesus that can't be understood thought the entirety of the Gospels or of Paul's letters (in other words, in context).

Paul was not writing to unbelievers. Why would he appeal to eyewitnesses? The people he was talking to were or knew eyewitnesses. 

It seems the people he was writing did not become as confused as you as to his message, purpose, and authority. But if you want to give a specific example, I will consider it.

(July 24, 2017 at 12:29 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(July 24, 2017 at 7:32 am)Jehanne Wrote: I find it interesting that WLC, in his debate with Sean Carroll in 2014, never brought-up the topic of the so-called absurdities of "actual infinities".

To be fair they were not debating metaphysics

True, but in other venues, Craig has referred to it as being his "knockdown argument".  In my opinion, the reason that he did not bring it up is because he knew that Professor Carroll would embarrass him over it.

Steve only lots of words never anything rational nor sane to be found in them

(July 24, 2017 at 4:46 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 22, 2017 at 7:22 am)mordant Wrote: Well we don't think that a three-legged squid descended from heaven 3000 years ago to enlighten humanity, despite that no one ever came forward and said it DIDN'T happen.

In any case you may be surprised to find out that I contend that we are living in a world where these events DIDN'T transpire as reported. Unlike you I am not in the least impressed that people believe something that is concocted. Happens all the time. Leeches my friend, leeches. Common belief is no evidence that the belief is true. Even the canard that people are willing to die for a belief is no evidence that it's true (witness Islamic suicide bombers).

I'm sure that's what you think. However, the probability of all the events following Christ's death/resurrection (people, churches, Q, letters, gospels, second century writers, etc.) happening as they did are very low if the events did not happen as related. I have never heard a good evidenced explanation from an atheist why we see what we do. Just half-baked conspiracy theories and "people where gullible back then" scenarios. Neither addressing hardly any of the details.  

All other religions are evidenced explanations.

Quote:It is insufficient for tens of millions of others too. Neither fact speaks to the validity of the evidence or the arguments pro and con.

If I made the argument that the facts are true because billions of people believed, then you point is correct. I did not, so it does not apply to my point. 

But you are inferring that all believers came to christianity by the "evidence", conveniently ignoring the fact that it was spread by the sword, killing people who didn't buy it, as well as the indoctrination of children and that many christians believe just because it feels good.

Quote:Absent your low bar of what constitutes an "eyewitness" neither can you.

Do you honestly think there is a comparison to be made between the historicity of the events of Jesus (and aftermath) and that of Buddha? 454 years is 18 generations of people relating stories before someone wrote it all down. Paul was sharpening his pencil to write to the pre-existing churches across the empire, pre-gospel document(s) existed, and people were going on missionary journeys to tell of their eyewitness experience 18 years after Jesus. 

Quote:Extraordinary claims require extraordinary substantiation. That is a basic principle. If I claim to be married, that's not extraordinary and you're inclined to accept it as fact unless and until you know something that argues against it. But if I claim to be married to a woman who turns water into wine and rose from the dead, you'd be disinclined to believe it until you know something that argues FOR it.

It is not a basic principle! While it sounds intuitive, it is not well-grounded. First, 'extraordinary' is very subjective and has to do with what a person knows or believes. In the extreme example of a person knowing nothing, everything would be extraordinary. Second, it is simple probability theory that you can examine what is the probability of having the effect of a miracle (say hundreds of eyewitnesses see X) if the event they witnessed did not really happen.  Third, you are still question begging because you are discounting eyewitness testimony for the only reason that you believe miracles are not possible. We are justified in preferring a naturalistic explanation--all things being equal. We are not justified in insisting on one. 

You believe in miracles because you want to, not for any probability or evidence.

Quote:Other than by traditional attribution we have no idea who wrote the gospels. That's a simple fact. They aren't known to US who are examining the claims NOW.

You fail to explain why a name is important.

I fail to see how you can NOT think this is important.

(July 25, 2017 at 9:11 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(July 24, 2017 at 4:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: I'm sure that's what you think. However, the probability of all the events following Christ's death/resurrection (people, churches, Q, letters, gospels, second century writers, etc.) happening as they did are very low if the events did not happen as related. I have never heard a good evidenced explanation from an atheist why we see what we do. Just half-baked conspiracy theories and "people where gullible back then" scenarios. Neither addressing hardly any of the details.  

All other religions are evidenced explanations. [1]

If I made the argument that the facts are true because billions of people believed, then you point is correct. I did not, so it does not apply to my point. 

But you are inferring that all believers came to christianity by the "evidence", conveniently ignoring the fact that it was spread by the sword, killing people who didn't buy it, as well as the indoctrination of children and that many christians believe just because it feels good. [2]

Do you honestly think there is a comparison to be made between the historicity of the events of Jesus (and aftermath) and that of Buddha? 454 years is 18 generations of people relating stories before someone wrote it all down. Paul was sharpening his pencil to write to the pre-existing churches across the empire, pre-gospel document(s) existed, and people were going on missionary journeys to tell of their eyewitness experience 18 years after Jesus. 

It is not a basic principle! While it sounds intuitive, it is not well-grounded. First, 'extraordinary' is very subjective and has to do with what a person knows or believes. In the extreme example of a person knowing nothing, everything would be extraordinary. Second, it is simple probability theory that you can examine what is the probability of having the effect of a miracle (say hundreds of eyewitnesses see X) if the event they witnessed did not really happen.  Third, you are still question begging because you are discounting eyewitness testimony for the only reason that you believe miracles are not possible. We are justified in preferring a naturalistic explanation--all things being equal. We are not justified in insisting on one. 

You believe in miracles because you want to, not for any probability or evidence. [3]

You fail to explain why a name is important.

I fail to see how you can NOT think this is important. [4]

1. You will have to be clearer what you mean. I'm not going to guess.
2. Two things: First, the fact that millions of adults still become Christians each year. These are the people that believe that the evidence of the NT is sufficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_...Conversion . Second, just because you are born into a CHristian home does not mean you do not examine the evidence at some point in your life. 
3. While you are wrong, your point is meaningless: genetic fallacy.  You need to attack the evidence. 
4. I made my point. Address the content of the point and I will respond.

Interaktive quote- Whoever has a high aikju and good mental health will come to the right conclusion that there is no God.
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Is Dawkins nutty then?

Proper quote tags people!!!