(July 25, 2017 at 3:34 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:

(July 25, 2017 at 10:21 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Telling you that we don't have a problem with Jesus as a person IS a straight answer. Either he's made-up and all of his words are really someone else's, or he's real and we don't know which words attributed to him are his and which were put in his mouth by writers. Either way, we have no reason to be mad at Jesus as a person, if he was a person. Some people's conception of Jesus, and some of the people who claim to represent him, on the other hand, don't make him look too good. Maybe Jesus was an asshole, but we can't KNOW if he was an asshole. Maybe he was the most lovely person in the middle east in the 1st century, but we can't KNOW that either, I'm afraid.

Whoever first told the Parable of the Good Samaritan, I like it. Whoever told the parable about beating slaves, I don't like it. I don't know if either or both came from a 1st century rabbi named Yeshua who got in trouble with the Romans. Crucifixion is a hard way to go that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Asimov came up with this and I agree:

Why wouldn't a "good" Samaritan do as described in the parable?  

Think about that for a second, and then realize Jesus never used the word "good'.  It's on the header for the page, but no one claims Jesus wrote those.


Now read the parable again, and insert the word "ordinary" before each use of Samaritan.  It's a different parable now, isn't it?  And since Jesus didn't use the word "good", an ordinary Samaritan is what He had in mind.


Why does virtually every one get the wrong meaning from that parable ??  

Inertia, peer pressure, not bothering to read the damn book again ??????

Although it's kind of off-track from why this idiot thinks we hate Jesus, Vor, I have heard the story told as the actions of a normal, (scumbag who doesn't worship our god) Samaritan many times. I like the image that the one who had compassion was the outsider, the one the "holy people" didn't even think of as human.  That resonates with me.  It might be interesting to find the actual origin of the tale.  And, of course, it's a parable in the wholly babble.  This means it can mean anything you want it to mean.

It's another frustrating instance of the religious folks not being even minimally pious and displaying appropriate fealty to their own claimed deity and then coming here in a state of apostasy and preaching to the atheists.

Why can't we ever get a True Christian here witnessing The Word ??

I post enough heresy and blasphemy here, we don't need self described Christians coming here with their slacker scripture cherry picking take on God's Inerrant Truth.

(July 25, 2017 at 2:46 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: He's IRRELEVANT.  He's dead.  He may have existed, he doesn't exist any more.

Basically JC wants to save our souls when our bodies die.
He said he came to save the world, but that only applies to people who WANT to be saved..

---

(July 25, 2017 at 3:04 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Well Jesus straight up murders a tree for not bearing fruit in a season that it doesn't bear fruit.

Then you have the fact he tells his followers to hate their families.  That doesn't seem very nice.  He wanted to divide families.  He also insisted people worship him and love him more than anything else.  (So much for humble).  He was also a big fan of his genocidal father (which was also him...)  Oh yeah, and he and his dad (himself) plan to torture people for eternity.  Also he approved of slavery.  And nothing recorded about him advancing the rights of... well anyone.  Despite him apparently being in a position to do so.

1- JC was half-human, and his human side made him badmouth the fig tree.
2- If parents try to stop their kids becoming christians, he was telling kids to ignore them and do their own thing.
3- Jesus said he wants PALS, not fawning 'worshippers'.
"You're my friends if you follow me. I don't call you servants, but I call you friends"- (John 15:15)

4- He made it clear he wasn't  God-
"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )

5- He invited everybody to Paradise when they die, the invite is on the table-
"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son...he told his servants- go out and invite to the banquet anyone you find" (Matt 22:2)"

6- He never said a word about slavery.

PS- your sig is- "The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton"
Which religion are you talking about, surely not Christianity?-
Check it-
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )

Church of England women clergy-

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(July 25, 2017 at 6:19 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: It's another frustrating instance of the religious folks not being even minimally pious and displaying appropriate fealty to their own claimed deity and then coming here in a state of apostasy and preaching to the atheists.
Why can't we ever get a True Christian here witnessing The Word ??
I post enough heresy and blasphemy here, we don't need self described Christians coming here with their slacker scripture cherry picking take on God's Inerrant Truth.

You talking to me mate? I don't think I've ever claimed to be a christian have I? I simply started this thread to find out if I'm nuts for liking Jesus...
As for getting a 'True Christian' in here to witness the word, what exactly is a "True Christian"?
And why do you think you need one? You can simply pick up a slimline gospel for a few pennies from any bookshop..

Atheist Forums is here to take on True Believers of whatever stripe. Rebuking the steady drizzle of apostates, heretics and blasphemers we attract is not what I signed up for. Of what point is it for an actual atheist to be taking on an obvious heretic ???

Heretics and atheists alike are, by definition, damned. Why are we wasting our time on fellow travelers when we could be engaged with the real deal ??


Sheesh. A pox on all the slackers !!!

(July 25, 2017 at 8:42 pm)Dropship Wrote:

(July 25, 2017 at 2:46 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: He's IRRELEVANT.  He's dead.  He may have existed, he doesn't exist any more.

Basically JC wants to save our souls when our bodies die.
He said he came to save the world, but that only applies to people who WANT to be saved..

---

(July 25, 2017 at 3:04 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Well Jesus straight up murders a tree for not bearing fruit in a season that it doesn't bear fruit.

Then you have the fact he tells his followers to hate their families.  That doesn't seem very nice.  He wanted to divide families.  He also insisted people worship him and love him more than anything else.  (So much for humble).  He was also a big fan of his genocidal father (which was also him...)  Oh yeah, and he and his dad (himself) plan to torture people for eternity.  Also he approved of slavery.  And nothing recorded about him advancing the rights of... well anyone.  Despite him apparently being in a position to do so.

1- JC was half-human, and his human side made him badmouth the fig tree.
2- If parents try to stop their kids becoming christians, he was telling kids to ignore them and do their own thing.
3- Jesus said he wants PALS, not fawning 'worshippers'.
"You're my friends if you follow me. I don't call you servants, but I call you friends"- (John 15:15)

4- He made it clear he wasn't  God-
"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )

5- He invited everybody to Paradise when they die, the invite is on the table-
"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son...he told his servants- go out and invite to the banquet anyone you find" (Matt 22:2)"

6- He never said a word about slavery.

PS- your sig is- "The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton"
Which religion are you talking about, surely not Christianity?-
Check it-
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )

Church of England women clergy-

---

(July 25, 2017 at 6:19 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: It's another frustrating instance of the religious folks not being even minimally pious and displaying appropriate fealty to their own claimed deity and then coming here in a state of apostasy and preaching to the atheists.
Why can't we ever get a True Christian here witnessing The Word ??
I post enough heresy and blasphemy here, we don't need self described Christians coming here with their slacker scripture cherry picking take on God's Inerrant Truth.

You talking to me mate? I don't think I've ever claimed to be a christian have I? I simply started this thread to find out if I'm nuts for liking Jesus...
As for getting a 'True Christian' in here to witness the word, what exactly is a "True Christian"?
And why do you think you need one? You can simply pick up a slimline gospel for a few pennies from any bookshop..

Fuck, you're irksome. He's saving us from HIMSELF, which is no different than him tying us up, threatening to torture us, and then expecting a thank-you and kiss on his feet after he unties us and lets us walk out the door. FUCK THAT GUY and fuck you for thinking he's anything less than a psychotic sadist. If you bother looking at the story objectively, he intentionally (and by he, I mean the version of him that didn't even bother pretending not to be an asshole) created us incapable of living up to his standard and condemned us for it, so this 'salvation' of his is devoid of any meaning to anyone but himself and is nothing but an engine of slavery. Every one of your points you make via those passages can be refuted by other passages in the same damn book, so you can't say that him coming up with good ideas means anything when he (or the other 'protagonists') contradict one another! You literally do nothing but waste your breath quoting passages and ignoring the ones that cancel them out (but then I'm not one to talk, wasting my breath on your empty-headed ass) like a dishonest prick or an ignorant jackass.

Whether you believe in the guy is immaterial, if you're a fan of his, you're being extremely foolhardy with this hero-worship crap. That's not the way to go about things. You know why they say never meet your heroes, or, ha, what am I saying, of course you don't, but the reason for that is even someone as allegedly squeaky-clean as Jeebus has a massive dark side. Your choosing to ignore that just furthers the problem and we have proof here that it's affected your cognition negatively (or at least has failed to help it improve.) Divorce your feelings for this figure you're better off without, critically examine the content of what he said (by that I mean, plagiarized) in those writings and take what makes sense, then discard what doesn't, acknowledge that the idiot wasn't remotely as perfect as he's made out to be and should be left to history as a forgotten waste of space, and let your mind recover from this self-imposed suffocation with an an actual independent thought-filled future. And guess what? The fact that I'm saying this, out of the billions of others who could say the same thing, doesn't matter worth a shit. The fact that I'm right is what matters, and whoever else might say it, would be right. Try thinking of things in those terms. Start small. Baby steps.

vorlon13 Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Telling you that we don't have a problem with Jesus as a person IS a straight answer. Either he's made-up and all of his words are really someone else's, or he's real and we don't know which words attributed to him are his and which were put in his mouth by writers. Either way, we have no reason to be mad at Jesus as a person, if he was a person. Some people's conception of Jesus, and some of the people who claim to represent him, on the other hand, don't make him look too good. Maybe Jesus was an asshole, but we can't KNOW if he was an asshole. Maybe he was the most lovely person in the middle east in the 1st century, but we can't KNOW that either, I'm afraid.

Whoever first told the Parable of the Good Samaritan, I like it. Whoever told the parable about beating slaves, I don't like it. I don't know if either or both came from a 1st century rabbi named Yeshua who got in trouble with the Romans. Crucifixion is a hard way to go that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Asimov came up with this and I agree:

Why wouldn't a "good" Samaritan do as described in the parable?  

Think about that for a second, and then realize Jesus never used the word "good'.  It's on the header for the page, but no one claims Jesus wrote those.


Now read the parable again, and insert the word "ordinary" before each use of Samaritan.  It's a different parable now, isn't it?  And since Jesus didn't use the word "good", an ordinary Samaritan is what He had in mind.


Why does virtually every one get the wrong meaning from that parable ??  

Inertia, peer pressure, not bothering to read the damn book again ??????

The parable is in response to the question 'who are our neighbors?', that is, who should we treat like a neighbor. The answer is that we should treat anyone who needs our help like a neighbor.

What am I missing?

---

Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Jesus.
What do you want, Jesus?
I want you to let me in.
Why?
So I can save you.
Save me from what?
From what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in.

---

Dropship Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Telling you that we don't have a problem with Jesus as a person IS a straight answer. Either he's made-up and all of his words are really someone else's, or he's real and we don't know which words attributed to him are his and which were put in his mouth by writers..

Astonished quote-  he's basically like a really bad villain in one of my books, movies or video games; I hate the character but I know he never existed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay guys let's try a different tack and assume Jesus was either real or nor real. In either case, what was it he said that atheists don't like?

Oh my goodness, different atheists have different opinions! It's almost like we don't have anything in common but that one thing we don't believe.

I already gave you a list of iffy 'Jesus quotes'...that you did not respond to. Why do you ask questions you've already gotten an answer on?

(July 25, 2017 at 8:42 pm)Dropship Wrote:

(July 25, 2017 at 2:46 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: He's IRRELEVANT.  He's dead.  He may have existed, he doesn't exist any more.

Basically JC wants to save our souls when our bodies die.
He said he came to save the world, but that only applies to people who WANT to be saved..

---

---

(July 25, 2017 at 3:04 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Well Jesus straight up murders a tree for not bearing fruit in a season that it doesn't bear fruit.

Then you have the fact he tells his followers to hate their families.  That doesn't seem very nice.  He wanted to divide families.  He also insisted people worship him and love him more than anything else.  (So much for humble).  He was also a big fan of his genocidal father (which was also him...)  Oh yeah, and he and his dad (himself) plan to torture people for eternity.  Also he approved of slavery.  And nothing recorded about him advancing the rights of... well anyone.  Despite him apparently being in a position to do so.

1- JC was half-human, and his human side made him badmouth the fig tree.
2- If parents try to stop their kids becoming christians, he was telling kids to ignore them and do their own thing.
3- Jesus said he wants PALS, not fawning 'worshippers'.
"You're my friends if you follow me. I don't call you servants, but I call you friends"- (John 15:15)

4- He made it clear he wasn't  God-
"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )

5- He invited everybody to Paradise when they die, the invite is on the table-
"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son...he told his servants- go out and invite to the banquet anyone you find" (Matt 22:2)"

6- He never said a word about slavery.

PS- your sig is- "The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton"
Which religion are you talking about, surely not Christianity?-
Check it-
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )

Church of England women clergy-

---

(July 25, 2017 at 6:19 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: It's another frustrating instance of the religious folks not being even minimally pious and displaying appropriate fealty to their own claimed deity and then coming here in a state of apostasy and preaching to the atheists.
Why can't we ever get a True Christian here witnessing The Word ??
I post enough heresy and blasphemy here, we don't need self described Christians coming here with their slacker scripture cherry picking take on God's Inerrant Truth.

You talking to me mate? I don't think I've ever claimed to be a christian have I? I simply started this thread to find out if I'm nuts for liking Jesus...
As for getting a 'True Christian' in here to witness the word, what exactly is a "True Christian"?
And why do you think you need one? You can simply pick up a slimline gospel for a few pennies from any bookshop..

---

Jesus doesn't want anything.  He's dead.  He doesn't exist.  To continue this conversation past that point, you have to prove he ISN'T dead.  And you have to do that without quoting from a book or making baseless assertions.  It's hard to tell, at this point, after you have been told this a dozen times, if you're really brainless or just trolling for a reaction.

"ordinary" people can be our neighbors, not just the "good" people. The parable as pronounced by Jesus is far more inclusive than the retconned version.


Current era example:

replace Samaritan with Palestinian, keeping the main character Jewish. Well, of course a "good" Palestinian would help a Jew who had been waylaid by bandits. But how many "good' Palestinians might there be these days ??

But an "ordinary" Palestinian might do the same ???


See the difference ??


Adding that word "good" to the parable mutes, blunts, dulls, neuters and obscures the point of it.

Since the word 'good' isn't actually in the parable, I was never confused by it.

(July 26, 2017 at 9:17 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: I already gave you a list of iffy 'Jesus quotes'...that you did not respond to. Why do you ask questions you've already gotten an answer on?

Like I said before I'm sorry if I'm missing seeing peoples posts, but I can't get used to AF's cluttered forum layout (especially the multi-quote thing) and I often lose track of who said what.
Also, people tend to fire big blunderbusses of different points at me all at once which would take forever to answer, which is why I prefer short sharp punchy posts containing just one or two specific points.
What exactly are the "iffy" things Jesus said that you're having trouble with?

---

(July 25, 2017 at 10:19 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Atheist Forums is here to take on True Believers of whatever stripe.  Rebuking the  steady drizzle of apostates, heretics and blasphemers we attract is not what I signed up for.  Of what point is it for an actual atheist to be taking on an obvious heretic ???
Heretics and atheists alike are, by definition, damned.  Why are we wasting our time on fellow travelers when we could be engaged with the real deal ??
Sheesh.  A pox on all the slackers !!!

Good for you mate, I've been busting fundy ass myself all around internetland for 15 years.
Problem is, they run for cover when they see me coming and not many dare stand their ground and slug it out because they know they'll be going down  bigtime at my hands..



For example here's what a big shot in the Jehovah's Witnesses once posted about me because I was giving him a hard time- "He's ignorant, a fable-spinner, talks drivel, a deceiver, racist, self-deluded"

And when I once tried to log back into a religious forum this message came up -
"Your account has been disabled, please do not make any attempt to participate further in any of our Communities"

In fact fundies alert each other when I'm around with warnings like this- 
GwenHez - "He's a tough nut to crack folks. Don't mess with that one"
Lillith - "No amount of rebutalls or insults directed towards him will have any effect whatsoever"