(August 5, 2017 at 2:31 pm)ComradeMeow Wrote:

(August 5, 2017 at 1:33 pm)chimp3 Wrote: I am a weird introvert and difficult to get along with once you have entered my personal space. I like being alone a lot. Even in  a crowd I will isolate myself. "Hey! Are you listening!" is a common phrase I hear. I would not consider this a tendency towards monasticism. Being an introverted book worm is more accurate. I am now divorced and nearing 60. If I do consider another relationship I think another bookworm would be right up my alley.

You have no idea how bad that sounded right now 

I can even make an innuendo out of the word "innuendo" as in "Innuendo and out the other!"

(August 5, 2017 at 2:45 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Comrade, do you have the notion that by isolation and self education you can somehow transcend both theism and atheism? Develop some new kind of woo for humanity?

I hear that fire watching in New Mexico is paid isolation. Maybe try that.

I do not think atheism can be transcended and I find it dangerous to make a massive case for atheism. It is a simple word that requires nothing else for humanity than the fact we don't accept another person's bullshit. On top of this is the need people have for woo and other forms of theistic inclination. 


I actually knew a girl who thought her seizures were a result of her not manifesting her chakras correctly and refused to seek medical help. She was the most wackiest girl possible and thought that god was trying to manifest himself in person in her life and some other nonsense. I was just shocked that she could talk about Jesus and chakras in the same sentence like it is a normal thing to hear in a conversation. I still have not found anybody who accepts chakras while being a Christian fundie at the same time. I had to turn my head around to smile and hold my giggles in before I lost it, and just to add to the horror she followed me across my college campus for 2 fucking hours rattling on about Jesus, chakras, chi and spirituality!

If I wanted to create a religion I would undoubtedly ensure that the only thing worshipped would be mathematics and the only thing praised would be human endeavor. But this is not something I think can be formed in total isolation nor do I think isolation from all social contact is beneficial.

Monastic systems are, by design, supposed to collect food / clothing / $$$ from ordinary people (householders, in Buddhist terminology) so that a subclass of people can be exempted from having to earn a living in order to devote themselves to the pursuit of disciplined learning and transmission of esoteric knowledge. The motivation for a religion to have a monastic order is really not much different from why Christianity has seminaries that churn out pastors / priests. This is also a special class that doesn't have to earn a normal living.

I remember once that a pastor I sat under expressed frustration that people didn't spend more time in Bible study and prayer, to the detriment of their faith. I suggested to him that maybe he had gotten a little out of touch with the laity because he gets PAID to do little else day in and out, aside from writing a couple of sermons per week and visiting the sick as needed. It's easy but tone-deaf to tell people they should spend a minimum of one hour daily "in the Word". Most people work too many hours for too little $$, get too little rest, and have too many demands on their limited time (wife, kids) and frankly find watching TV more relaxing than a contrived devotional. Don't shoot me, I said, I'm just the messenger.

So ... if you want to be a "monk" you're going to have to convince a bunch of people to finance you. Atheism wouldn't do that because it has nothing to perpetuate. You can learn 100% of atheist dogma in like 15 seconds. Out and done.

(August 5, 2017 at 6:50 pm)mordant Wrote: Monastic systems are, by design, supposed to collect food / clothing / $$$ from ordinary people (householders, in Buddhist terminology) so that a subclass of people can be exempted from having to earn a living in order to devote themselves to the pursuit of disciplined learning and transmission of esoteric knowledge. The motivation for a religion to have a monastic order is really not much different from why Christianity has seminaries that churn out pastors / priests. This is also a special class that doesn't have to earn a normal living.

I remember once that a pastor I sat under expressed frustration that people didn't spent more time in Bible study and prayer, to the detriment of their faith. I suggested to him that maybe he had gotten a little out of touch with the laity because he gets PAID to do little else day in and out, aside from writing a couple of sermons per week and visiting the sick as needed. It's easy but tone-deaf to tell people they should spend a minimum of one hour daily "in the Word". Most people work too many hours for too little $$, get too little rest, and have too many demands on their limited time (wife, kids) and frankly find watching TV more relaxing than a contrived devotional. Don't shoot me, I said, I'm just the messenger.

So ... if you want to be a "monk" you're going to have to convince a bunch of people to finance you. Atheism wouldn't do that because it has nothing to perpetuate. You can learn 100% of atheist dogma in like 15 seconds. Out and done.

That's not how the catholic monasteries I know operate, though. They may own some land that supports them, but they usually produce and sell stuff, operate hotels and convention centers, and the members work. They are pretty independent from the Vatican as well.

(August 5, 2017 at 7:03 pm)Alex K Wrote: That's not how the catholic monasteries I know operate, though. They may own some land that supports them, but they usually produce and sell stuff, operate hotels and convention centers, and the members work. They are pretty independent from the Vatican as well.

Yes and in fairness some Buddhist monks produce stuff to help support themselves. And pastors / priests do provide counseling (of varying quality) and visit the sick and housebound so it's not like they sit around all day navel-gazing (and many of them are not paid very well).

My basic point is just that there has to be a patron of some sort if you want to just sit around and think great thoughts or seek enlightenment.

(August 5, 2017 at 7:14 pm)mordant Wrote:

(August 5, 2017 at 7:03 pm)Alex K Wrote: That's not how the catholic monasteries I know operate, though. They may own some land that supports them, but they usually produce and sell stuff, operate hotels and convention centers, and the members work. They are pretty independent from the Vatican as well.

Yes and in fairness some Buddhist monks produce stuff to help support themselves. And pastors / priests do provide counseling (of varying quality) and visit the sick and housebound so it's not like they sit around all day navel-gazing (and many of them are not paid very well).

My basic point is just that there has to be a patron of some sort if you want to just sit around and think great thoughts or seek enlightenment.

My atheist monastery is going to be brewing beer like the best of em. Plenty of opportunity to think great thoughts on the side

"What good do they do to the community?"

Quote:You might compare the hermit monk to the research scientist. Society supports the research scientist as he sits in his laboratory conducting experiments because it hopes that he will eventually discover or invent something that will be for the general good. Likewise the Buddhist community supports the meditating monk (and his needs are very meagre) because it hopes that he will attain wisdom and insights that will be for the general good. But even before this happens or even if it doesn't, the meditating monk can still benefit others. In some modern societies it is 'The Lifestyle of the Rich and Famous', with its extravagance, its conspicuous consumption and its self-indulgence which is held up as the ideal to follow, or at least to envy. The example that the meditating monk sets reminds us that one doesn't have to be rich to be content. It shows us that the gentle and simple lifestyle has its advantages too.

Read it and weep

(August 5, 2017 at 7:59 pm)Succubus Wrote:

Buddhist Q&A

"What good do they do to the community?"

Quote:You might compare the hermit monk to the research scientist. Society supports the research scientist as he sits in his laboratory conducting experiments because it hopes that he will eventually discover or invent something that will be for the general good. Likewise the Buddhist community supports the meditating monk (and his needs are very meagre) because it hopes that he will attain wisdom and insights that will be for the general good. But even before this happens or even if it doesn't, the meditating monk can still benefit others. In some modern societies it is 'The Lifestyle of the Rich and Famous', with its extravagance, its conspicuous consumption and its self-indulgence which is held up as the ideal to follow, or at least to envy. The example that the meditating monk sets reminds us that one doesn't have to be rich to be content. It shows us that the gentle and simple lifestyle has its advantages too.

Read it and weep

If I want to learn "Right Livelihood" I would seek examples from the gainfully employed. 

Monk : "I learned from staring at my navel that we must take care of the needy!"

Philanthropist: "I am donating $100 million dollars to build a children's hospital"

(August 5, 2017 at 7:14 pm)mordant Wrote:

(August 5, 2017 at 7:03 pm)Alex K Wrote: That's not how the catholic monasteries I know operate, though. They may own some land that supports them, but they usually produce and sell stuff, operate hotels and convention centers, and the members work. They are pretty independent from the Vatican as well.

Yes and in fairness some Buddhist monks produce stuff to help support themselves. And pastors / priests do provide counseling (of varying quality) and visit the sick and housebound so it's not like they sit around all day navel-gazing (and many of them are not paid very well).

My basic point is just that there has to be a patron of some sort if you want to just sit around and think great thoughts or seek enlightenment.

As I mentioned before, maybe if you had a publisher and an audience willing to buy enough of your books that you could afford to do so, or, if you had the desire and the ability to live off the fat of the land (note: the ability to actually do so is key if you don't want to end up like Christopher McCandless), your desire for a monastic lifestyle might actually be sustainable.

Or maybe get on welfare, slim down your lifestyle, and hope the Republicans don't slash welfare benefits, which I don't think would be a terribly attractive idea for you.

(August 5, 2017 at 9:03 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: As I mentioned before, maybe if you had a publisher and an audience willing to buy enough of your books that you could afford to do so, or, if you had the desire and the ability to live off the fat of the land (note: the ability to actually do so is key if you don't want to end up like Christopher McCandless), your desire for a monastic lifestyle might actually be sustainable.

Or maybe get on welfare, slim down your lifestyle, and hope the Republicans don't slash welfare benefits, which I don't think would be a terribly attractive idea for you.

Back in the mid-90's I actually had started building a following as a non-fiction author, it was just in tech rather than self-help or philosophy. My guess is that it would be difficult to actually support yourself as a nonfiction author. In tech, selling 20,000 copies is a runaway best seller. The real money isn't in the book royalties themselves in those kinds of markets, but in leveraging your status as a published author (and therefore presumably at least a relative "expert") to work the speaking or teaching circuit. I turned away from that opportunity when I discovered that even though I was good at it, I liked traveling and speaking about as much as I like root canals.

My point being that authors / gurus work hard too. It isn't just some free byproduct of mindfulness or contemplation.

Your other suggestion is probably more apropos, learn to live very simply and maybe haunt public libraries (while they still exist anyway) to do reading and research. Try to live like an actual monk.