(September 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Astreja Wrote: I don't need a "leader from God," MK.  I manage perfectly well without one.  Deal with it.

I also find it rather disturbing that you swing wildly from talking about love to talking about how much you hate.  Obviously your religious beliefs are not doing you any favours in terms of emotional control, and you might want to spend some time getting a handle on that problem.

This, precisely.

I'm a better person because I DON'T get my morality from a "holy" book.

(September 21, 2017 at 9:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 12:12 pm)Cyberman Wrote: And when these leaders show up, how do we know they're from "God"? Because they say so? Because they do things that only a leader from "God" would do? 

This is a good question. But if it were not my experience you are asking to seek fault as opposed to understand which would be followed by a series of questions to seek fault and would at the end coming down to denying God and asking proof for him, I would have elaborated and answered your question.

"What a good question, but it's your fault that I'm not going to answer it."

Wow.

(September 21, 2017 at 11:39 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 9:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But the question is which God, what God, who is God, how to know that true God and his will and religion, and this is a good question, a question all humans have to focus on not to dismiss religion but rather dismiss all false religion with no proof and follow the true religion that has a clear proof.

That's why I'm an atheist. No religion has a "clear proof."  The most that one can hope for is evidence that the founder of the religion was a real person.  There is no credible evidence for the existence of any gods.  There is no credible evidence for any of the supernatural claims made by various religions.  None.

Well said.  Out of curiosity, if someone does want to believe in a deity, then what's wrong with people exercising some creativity and free thought that is not confined to the current religious thought patterns? IMO, if such free thought were exercised in this domain, then perhaps new thought patterns may emerge, which might actually produce unambiguous, credible arguments and evidence for the existence of a deity-like lifeform (whatever that is); thus, providing religions with new insights that may provide a clearer direction toward spiritual truth.  However, this is assuming that practitioners of religion would actually like to pursue spiritual truth, especially if it means embracing new/unfamiliar thought patterns, and are not just interested in the comforts of social control and maintaining the status quo regardless of how backwards it may be.

(September 22, 2017 at 12:47 am)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 11:39 pm)Astreja Wrote: That's why I'm an atheist. No religion has a "clear proof."  The most that one can hope for is evidence that the founder of the religion was a real person.  There is no credible evidence for the existence of any gods.  There is no credible evidence for any of the supernatural claims made by various religions.  None.

Well said.  Out of curiosity, if someone does want to believe in a deity, then what's wrong with people exercising some creativity and free thought that is not confined to the current religious thought patterns? IMO, if such free thought were exercised in this domain, then perhaps new thought patterns may emerge, which might actually produce unambiguous, credible arguments and evidence for the existence of a deity-like lifeform (whatever that is); thus, providing religions with new insights that may provide a clearer direction toward spiritual truth.  However, this is assuming that practitioners of religion would actually like to pursue spiritual truth, especially if it means embracing new/unfamiliar thought patterns, and are not just interested in the comforts of social control and maintaining the status quo regardless of how backwards it may be.

It seems to me like that pursuit would just break down in meaninglessness. Science and philosophy are both better off without dealing with the pseudospiritual domain. Yes, we'd be better off if every stringent theist adopted this sort of practice instead but ultimately there's still no good that will come of it. That whole enterprise is a philosophical dead end (or gangrenous limb).

(September 22, 2017 at 1:24 am)Astonished Wrote:

(September 22, 2017 at 12:47 am)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote: Well said.  Out of curiosity, if someone does want to believe in a deity, then what's wrong with people exercising some creativity and free thought that is not confined to the current religious thought patterns? IMO, if such free thought were exercised in this domain, then perhaps new thought patterns may emerge, which might actually produce unambiguous, credible arguments and evidence for the existence of a deity-like lifeform (whatever that is); thus, providing religions with new insights that may provide a clearer direction toward spiritual truth.  However, this is assuming that practitioners of religion would actually like to pursue spiritual truth, especially if it means embracing new/unfamiliar thought patterns, and are not just interested in the comforts of social control and maintaining the status quo regardless of how backwards it may be.

It seems to me like that pursuit would just break down in meaninglessness. Science and philosophy are both better off without dealing with the pseudospiritual domain. Yes, we'd be better off if every stringent theist adopted this sort of practice instead but ultimately there's still no good that will come of it. That whole enterprise is a philosophical dead end (or gangrenous limb).

You might be right about it breaking down into meaninglessness.  However, perhaps such a breakdown is a necessary step toward creating one's own meaning/value and distancing oneself from obtaining meaning via dogmatism and the suppression of different ways of thinking.

@MK, are you being coached by someone?
If so, is that person connected to the Daesh or Al Qaeda?

Are you sure you want to associate yourself with the likes of those folk?
Walk away before it's too late.... before you actually do something that the good MK will regret.

What's the difference between 'enlightened rants' and 'unsupported assertions'?

(September 22, 2017 at 9:19 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: What's the difference between 'enlightened rants' and 'unsupported assertions'?

To the untrained mind, not much, to one searching for wisdom, a huge difference.

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(September 21, 2017 at 11:58 pm)Cyberman Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 9:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This is a good question. But if it were not my experience you are asking to seek fault as opposed to understand which would be followed by a series of questions to seek fault and would at the end coming down to denying God and asking proof for him, I would have elaborated and answered your question.

"What a good question, but it's your fault that I'm not going to answer it."

Wow.

*smiles*

So you guys can understand what I say sometimes.

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(September 11, 2017 at 6:56 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If you say the magic words right, a ghost appears.

Particularly a Guide that will show you the way to your Lord and remind of your Lord.

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(September 21, 2017 at 11:39 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 9:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But the question is which God, what God, who is God, how to know that true God and his will and religion, and this is a good question, a question all humans have to focus on not to dismiss religion but rather dismiss all false religion with no proof and follow the true religion that has a clear proof.

That's why I'm an atheist. No religion has a "clear proof."  The most that one can hope for is evidence that the founder of the religion was a real person.  There is no credible evidence for the existence of any gods.  There is no credible evidence for any of the supernatural claims made by various religions.  None.

You are atheist because you have not recognized the proof of God.  If you reflected all your life, still, your reflection is not proof there is no proof.   To God belongs the reaching proof, and it is up to him to keep it hidden or manifest it.

I recommend the Quran because it centralizes on the issue of "proof". Of course, what the clear proof is not something most people want it to be. They want to be something they own. Something they create and increase themselves. But the proof is a human, not an Angel, not some mystical reality that is not a living being, not a concept in your mind, not some algorithm in your mind, but a human that is a leader that is connected to the Highest sky to the lowest earth, and is door and Captain that will navigate society to justice. It was during Mohammad time him who would recite the Signs, and he is a reminder brought down, an instance of the written reminder in living form.

And if you really think about deeply enough, morality is not a dead concept, but a living reality. It's him the living human, he is God's command, the spirit from his command is him, the light brought down is him, the blessed tree that extends to all is him, and the loving fabrics that all relationships are asked by him, is at the center of it all, him. And the center source of this name and light is God blessing and giving sustenance, connecting to God and connecting others to God.

The name of God is a human leader,  was so from the start even when Angels didn't know Mohammad and the family of Mohammad were that since they didn't take on physical form yet, and thought they were better fit than Adam when God created Adam, until they prostrated knowing his superior knowledge of the names, except the dark one Iblis who is a manifest enemy to humanity and is so now.

When you realize what morality is, what good is, what love is, what value is, the link of perception, the justice, honor, and importance of seeking truth and clear proof, and do away with the confusion of the grey muddy lake, it will become clear.

---

(September 21, 2017 at 11:43 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 11:07 am)Astreja Wrote: I don't need a "leader from God," MK.  I manage perfectly well without one.  Deal with it.

I also find it rather disturbing that you swing wildly from talking about love to talking about how much you hate.  Obviously your religious beliefs are not doing you any favours in terms of emotional control, and you might want to spend some time getting a handle on that problem.

This, precisely.

I'm a better person because I DON'T get my morality from a "holy" book.

You get your morality out of your sheer desire of what you want to be, taking from the light of the guide what suits you, and taking from the darkness of the hearts of society was suits you, and mixing it like some delicious cake to eat, but it's filled with evil, filth, and ignorance with pure blessed water.

Indeed you seek to corrupt it rather than perfect your soul by it.

(September 22, 2017 at 10:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 21, 2017 at 11:39 pm)Astreja Wrote: That's why I'm an atheist. No religion has a "clear proof."  The most that one can hope for is evidence that the founder of the religion was a real person.  There is no credible evidence for the existence of any gods.  There is no credible evidence for any of the supernatural claims made by various religions.  None.

You are atheist because you have not recognized the proof of God.  If you reflected all your life, still, your reflection is not proof there is no proof.   To God belongs the reaching proof, and it is up to him to keep it hidden or manifest it.

I recommend the Quran because it centralizes on the issue of "proof". Of course, what the clear proof is not something most people want it to be. They want to be something they own. Something they create and increase themselves. But the proof is a human, not an Angel, not some mystical reality that is not a living being, not a concept in your mind, not some algorithm in your mind, but a human that is a leader that is connected to the Highest sky to the lowest earth, and is door and Captain that will navigate society to justice. It was during Mohammad time him who would recite the Signs, and he is a reminder brought down, an instance of the written reminder in living form.

And if you really think about deeply enough, morality is not a dead concept, but a living reality. It's him the living human, he is God's command, the spirit from his command is him, the light brought down is him, the blessed tree that extends to all is him, and the loving fabrics that all relationships are asked by him, is at the center of it all, him. And the center source of this name and light is God blessing and giving sustenance, connecting to God and connecting others to God.

The name of God is a human leader,  was so from the start even when Angels didn't know Mohammad and the family of Mohammad were that since they didn't take on physical form yet, and thought they were better fit than Adam when God created Adam, until they prostrated knowing his superior knowledge of the names, except the dark one Iblis who is a manifest enemy to humanity and is so now.

When you realize what morality is, what good is, what love is, what value is, the link of perception, the justice, honor, and importance of seeking truth and clear proof, and do away with the confusion of the grey muddy lake, it will become clear.

And that is why you fail.
As long as you bring a human into the business of the supernatural, you're falling head-on into a fallacy.
And to claim that one single special human that lived long ago was the one single unique perfect bridge between all of mankind and the supernatural is to just ask to be called gullible... or even stupid.

(September 22, 2017 at 10:51 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 22, 2017 at 10:23 am)MysticKnight Wrote: You are atheist because you have not recognized the proof of God.  If you reflected all your life, still, your reflection is not proof there is no proof.   To God belongs the reaching proof, and it is up to him to keep it hidden or manifest it.

I recommend the Quran because it centralizes on the issue of "proof". Of course, what the clear proof is not something most people want it to be. They want to be something they own. Something they create and increase themselves. But the proof is a human, not an Angel, not some mystical reality that is not a living being, not a concept in your mind, not some algorithm in your mind, but a human that is a leader that is connected to the Highest sky to the lowest earth, and is door and Captain that will navigate society to justice. It was during Mohammad time him who would recite the Signs, and he is a reminder brought down, an instance of the written reminder in living form.

And if you really think about deeply enough, morality is not a dead concept, but a living reality. It's him the living human, he is God's command, the spirit from his command is him, the light brought down is him, the blessed tree that extends to all is him, and the loving fabrics that all relationships are asked by him, is at the center of it all, him. And the center source of this name and light is God blessing and giving sustenance, connecting to God and connecting others to God.

The name of God is a human leader,  was so from the start even when Angels didn't know Mohammad and the family of Mohammad were that since they didn't take on physical form yet, and thought they were better fit than Adam when God created Adam, until they prostrated knowing his superior knowledge of the names, except the dark one Iblis who is a manifest enemy to humanity and is so now.

When you realize what morality is, what good is, what love is, what value is, the link of perception, the justice, honor, and importance of seeking truth and clear proof, and do away with the confusion of the grey muddy lake, it will become clear.

And that is why you fail.
As long as you bring a human into the business of the supernatural, you're falling head-on into a fallacy.
And to claim that one single special human that lived long ago was the one single unique perfect bridge between all of mankind and the supernatural is to just ask to be called gullible... or even stupid.

It appears foolish perhaps by "common conjecture" of what goodness is, but goodness has always been about connecting to what truly reminds us of God and ourselves, and what others are in truth, and that always been by the family of the reminder of the time because love is to give value to things truthfully and measure them with their proper due.

The beautiful Names of God are the Captains and ways to God, split into twelve branches after the founding Captain, linking back to one root, the name of God is the Captain and the Captain is the Name of God, how else would we be navigated to God but through something that perfectly points to him and indicates who he is? They glorify by the name of God, they glorify by the sanctity of God's blessings in them which unite all blessings in creation, they glorify by the name of God mainly because they are his name, and we ought to glorify by their glorification, try to embrace as much of their light as possible and let them show us the way.