(September 29, 2017 at 2:33 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(September 29, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: A blind person could still identify an object even though he can't visualize it. 

I'm just trying to unravel this tangled mess you've made.  Referring back to Mary won't help here and was, as I initially commented, dubious to begin with.  I asked you how a person could identify something without being able to perceive it, as you claimed.  Not how a person could identify something without being able to see it.  

Quote:There are many anhedonic people out there who don't feel any emotions and there are miserable people out there who can only rely on thoughts of good value in their lives without their positive emotions.  Like I said, this is no way to live.

Can the anhedonic Happy Feel™ their way out of being anhedonic?  Is the thought of good value in someones life -not- a  locus of positive emotion?

Again, who lives this way?  If it;s limited to people with a disorder making it -impoosible- for them to feel emotion, then of what use is your worldview to them?  None.  Of what use is it to people who already feel positive emotions without it?

When I was referring to perceiving something, I was, in fact, talking about seeing something.  So, my sight analogy still applies.

(September 29, 2017 at 2:37 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: When I was referring to perceiving something, I was, in fact, talking about seeing something.  So, my sight analogy still applies.

Then you were equivocating over what was already a fundamentally dubious analogy.  I'm not sure why you'd want to defend that rather than modify it.  Is this part of the enlightenment?

Find something about whatever it is about Happy Thoughting™ you wish to convey that's actually true, and doesn't require such analogy....then you'll have managed to accurately communicate whatever it is you're trying to say.

(September 29, 2017 at 2:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(September 29, 2017 at 2:37 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: When I was referring to perceiving something, I was, in fact, talking about seeing something.  So, my sight analogy still applies.

Then you were equivocating over what was already a fundamentally dubious analogy.  I'm not sure why you'd want to defend that rather than modify it.  Is this part of the enlightenment?

Then go by my god/spiritual analogy which could also take on a secular form if we are living in a universe where there is no god/supernatural:

Our brains would be transceivers that pick up on divine energy in this universe.  This divine energy is sheer intrinsic goodness itself.  It engulfs our conscious being and puts us into a divine state that is known as a positive emotion.  It is through our positive emotions that we truly see the good value and beauty that things and situations hold on a whole new level that goes far beyond simply acknowledging these values.  We truly see our lives as being worth living as opposed to simply acknowledging it as being so.

There is a huge difference between acknowledging values and perceiving values as I've said before.  Through our positive emotions, we see the goodness, joy, love, and beauty through the eyes of god, so to speak, as opposed to through the eyes of a mere biological being/machine who can only think of words and acknowledge things and situations.  I will give a religious analogy to get my point across.  We can still use whatever analogy we want as long as it gets our point across regardless of how nonsensical the analogy sounds. 

You, as an unsaved sinner, can never see the magnificence, love, and beauty of Jesus without his holy light within your inner being.  It doesn't matter how much you acknowledge the existence of his magnificence and love.  You need his holy light in order to truly see his love and beauty for what it truly is.  As long as you don't have his holy light within you, then you are living like a machine and your standard of living is nothing at all.  In that same sense, our positive emotions are like the light of Jesus as they allow us to truly see the beauty, worth, and good value that things and situations hold.  Without them, then our standard of living is nothing at all (a no quality standard).  Likewise, our negative emotions would be like the opposite of Jesus' light (the inner darkness).  They are what allow us to truly see things as horrible, disgusting, etc.

From a dubious analogy to a failed one?  

Again, find something that is actually true about the thing you want to talk about. I do not possess a divine energy transciever, nor am I filled with jesus magic...and yet I'm not "living like a machine", nor is my standard of living even remotely low.

I must confess that I believed the same stupid shit a few years ago. I believed life was colored in the bad and good and the bad and good were positive and negative emotions respectively. It's really oversimplistic myopic shit but I believed it. For shame. I was young.

(September 29, 2017 at 2:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote: From a dubious analogy to a failed one?  

Again, find something that is actually true about the thing you want to talk about.  I do not possess a divine energy transciever, nor am I filled with jesus magic...and yet I'm not "living like a machine", nor is my standard of living even remotely low.

Alright, let me try again. If a person had no positive emotions such as due to being in a completely miserable state, then you would still say that he would be able to identify the good and beautiful values in life. This is still not the same thing as actually seeing those good and beautiful values just as how a blind person who identifies colors is not the same thing as him visualizing those colors. Therefore, it would still have to all go back to my sight analogy. Since this sight analogy is the analogy I have to go by, then let me try to make it more clear. If you were to see the good value and beauty of this life like how a sighted person would be able to visualize colors, then it would simply be amazing.

It would be beyond anything imaginable! If a person was blind his whole entire life, gained his sight for the first time, and saw all these wonderful colors, then it would be profoundly beautiful to him. Of course, in order for it to be profoundly beautiful to him, he would need to feel a positive emotion in order to see that as something beautiful. If everything I said here still does not make my worldview clear to you, then it is simply beyond your comprehension. Our positive emotions are the ultimate state of being and living and you cannot possibly comprehend their power. It is like a divine power/force in this universe that you cannot even begin to comprehend.

Why even bother talking about 'positive emotions'? Surely one positive emotion is enough and the more intense you feel it, the more positive, the better.

IOW all you need is pleasure and you have to get your ass away from suffering. This leads to smile and laughter and you may find yourself labelling yourself as 'happy'. Whatever that means.

(September 29, 2017 at 3:08 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Alright, let me try again.  If a person had no positive emotions such as due to being in a completely miserable state, then you would still say that he would be able to identify the good and beautiful values in life.  This is still not the same thing as actually seeing those good and beautiful values just as how a blind person who identifies colors is not the same thing as him visualizing those colors. 

Back to the dubious analogy?  Why, no matter how often or how strongly you reassert what I have already commented on...my response will be the same........  

Quote:Therefore, it would still have to all go back to my sight analogy.  Since this sight analogy is the analogy I have to go by, then let me try to make it more clear.  If you were to see the good value and beauty of this life like how a sighted person would be able to visualize colors, then it would simply be amazing.  It would be beyond anything imaginable!  If a person was blind his whole entire life, gained his sight for the first time, and saw all these wonderful colors, then it would be profoundly beautiful to him.  Of course, in order for it to be profoundly beautiful to him, he would need to feel a positive emotion in order to see that as something beautiful.

-aaaand that's how I know I'm not "enlightened" - that's not happening, despite my ability to both perceive goodness -and- feel good about it.  Can you see the problem here? If you are enlightened, it isn't for the reasons you've offered...they're common to humanity...whereas enlightenment (lol?) is not.

(September 29, 2017 at 3:24 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(September 29, 2017 at 3:08 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Alright, let me try again.  If a person had no positive emotions such as due to being in a completely miserable state, then you would still say that he would be able to identify the good and beautiful values in life.  This is still not the same thing as actually seeing those good and beautiful values just as how a blind person who identifies colors is not the same thing as him visualizing those colors. 

Back to the dubious analogy?  Why, no matter how often or how strongly you reassert what I have already commented on...my response will be the same........  

Quote:Therefore, it would still have to all go back to my sight analogy.  Since this sight analogy is the analogy I have to go by, then let me try to make it more clear.  If you were to see the good value and beauty of this life like how a sighted person would be able to visualize colors, then it would simply be amazing.  It would be beyond anything imaginable!  If a person was blind his whole entire life, gained his sight for the first time, and saw all these wonderful colors, then it would be profoundly beautiful to him.  Of course, in order for it to be profoundly beautiful to him, he would need to feel a positive emotion in order to see that as something beautiful.

-aaaand that's how I know I'm not "enlightened" - that's not happening, despite my ability to both perceive goodness -and- feel good about it.  Can you see the problem here?  If you are enlightened, it isn't for the reasons you've offered...they're common to humanity...whereas enlightenment (lol?) is not.

I will try yet again and this time it will be different.  There are two forms of value judgments as I've mentioned before.  There are those ones that come about through your thinking and then there are the emotional ones.  These emotional value judgments are the emotions themselves.  This means that if you felt a positive emotion, then you are actually judging a certain thing to be good.  If you felt a negative emotion, then you would actually be judging something to be bad even if you did not think that it was bad.  When you judge something as good or bad, then you are perceiving it as good or bad.  But the thought form of value judgments only allow us to perceive good and bad value in the sense of identifying them.  It can only be our emotions that allow us to see these values like how a sighted person would be able to visualize colors.

But what's the problem with living by a standard where you can only identify the good values in life? Like I said, perceiving these good values like how a sighted person would be able to visualize colors is like the inner light of god we need in our lives. Our lives would be empty without his light. But if we live in a universe where there is no god, then the secular version of my worldview would simply say that we need our positive emotions just like how we would need the light of god in a paranormal universe. Our secular lives would be empty as well without them regarldess of what we were to believe otherwise. If there are people who believe otherwise, then they would not have been awakened to the truth. They are just living by a no quality standard without even realizing it. Living a life of no emotions at all would be a no quality standard while living by misery and hopeless emotional states would literally be the worst quality standard to live by. It would literally be the worst way to live your life and pursue any given artistic endeavor.

Try all you want, it's futile.