What's the air speed velocity of an unladen African swallow?


And is "unladen" a real word?

(October 8, 2017 at 6:10 pm)Alisa Wrote: I believe that individuals have the right to make their own choices, but what really made you convinced that a divine being truly exist? I was theist myself, I was born in a Muslim family and studied the religion for approximately six years and last year I renounced Islam. What is your view regarding your god mercilessly allowing the torture and murder of his son so sinners can gain access to paradise? If he did that to his son and was not willing to save him from all the torture, then why should we expect anything from that imaginary sky man?

I agree! When is torturing and killing your own child because the neighbor kid misbehaved ever a good idea?

(October 8, 2017 at 12:11 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: ...I will say that there actually is significant evidence for the events of the New Testament,..

You have the floor.

As long as you bring it back.

(October 7, 2017 at 12:24 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: Hey all,

I'm a Christian, actually, still - well, I wasn't always. I'm a former atheist, and having now been on both sides, I can say I like this one a whole lot more. So, mine is more of a re-conversion story, in a sense, as a former Christian Scientist (blech) who became atheist and is now Christian. Go ahead, ask me questions and tell me about yourselves!

Are you lurking without any intentions of coming back?

Completely different view points and beliefs can make things interesting around here at times. Mainly the reactions to them.

(October 8, 2017 at 7:16 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(October 7, 2017 at 10:55 pm)Cyberman Wrote: You were just after the spanking.

And we all know what follows the spanking.

Not exactly what I was thinking but may be more palatable.

Why are you here? Not being a dick, legitimate question.

(October 9, 2017 at 12:18 am)energizer bunny Wrote:

(October 7, 2017 at 12:24 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: Hey all,

I'm a Christian, actually, still - well, I wasn't always. I'm a former atheist, and having now been on both sides, I can say I like this one a whole lot more. So, mine is more of a re-conversion story, in a sense, as a former Christian Scientist (blech) who became atheist and is now Christian. Go ahead, ask me questions and tell me about yourselves!

Are you lurking without any intentions of coming back?

Completely different view points and beliefs can make things interesting around here at times. Mainly the reactions to them.

No, I'm back, I just don't have a lot of time this particular week - love your screenname, by the by. And I agree that different view points and beliefs make things more interesting, but we should figure out (not limited to here) how we can be more accepting of other people, even if we disagree with their views.

---

(October 9, 2017 at 10:03 am)Bob Kelso Wrote: Why are you here? Not being a dick, legitimate question.

You guys have the best screennames - I honestly should re-watch "Scrubs" at some point. There are a couple of reasons I'm here - first, I want to help people come to Christ, because having been on both sides, I can say this is the less miserable one. It's not always sunshine and rainbows, but the tough times are less tough, and there's way more direction. I understand not everyone will agree with me, and that's okay - but my other reason is I want greater humanization in the world, because that's a huge problem. People are so quick to dismiss others because they are different for whatever reason, and yet most of us would get along a whole lot more if we put aside our biases and just listened.

---

(October 8, 2017 at 8:29 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(October 8, 2017 at 6:10 pm)Alisa Wrote: I believe that individuals have the right to make their own choices, but what really made you convinced that a divine being truly exist? I was theist myself, I was born in a Muslim family and studied the religion for approximately six years and last year I renounced Islam. What is your view regarding your god mercilessly allowing the torture and murder of his son so sinners can gain access to paradise? If he did that to his son and was not willing to save him from all the torture, then why should we expect anything from that imaginary sky man?

I agree! When is torturing and killing your own child because the neighbor kid misbehaved ever a good idea?

First, Alisa, I'm glad you renounced Islam - I've learned more about it in the last 6 months and I'm glad you're out of there. Regarding what you said and what chimp3 got at, have you guys ever heard of "bridge theory"? It's the idea that God is infinitely good, so sin is infinitely bad, and that, to reconcile the broken relationship between God and man (since the Jews couldn't keep the covenant God gave them), something infinite needed to happen to replace all the finite works (which is all we as people are capable of) of the covenant of the Old Testament (which goes waay beyond the 10 Commandments). All the animal sacrifices given by the people were flawed and never kept, so something perfect needed to be given to reconcile all the sin for all time, and that was Jesus' sinless life. 

God didn't allow Jesus to sin so we could have relationship with Him, to answer that question, and to answer the next, we should expect everything from Him BECAUSE He did that. We couldn't atone for ourselves, so Jesus did, and that is an act of extreme sacrificial love such as has never been seen in literature or other religions or in the real world, because sin is infinitely bad in the eyes of God, and yet He sacrificed Jesus for us despite how bad sin mars us in His eyes. And yet we have a hard time seeing people who we disagree with in a loving way (yes, I struggle with that, too).

---

(October 8, 2017 at 8:49 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(October 8, 2017 at 12:11 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: ...I will say that there actually is significant evidence for the events of the New Testament,..

You have the floor.

This is hardly enough space (and I have hardly enough time) to get into all of it. BUT I'll start off with this:

There is extra-Biblical evidence of Jesus' existence (look up the historian "Josephus", he is I think the main historian who wrote about Jesus, besides Luke, who wrote one of the gospels)

All 12 of Jesus' disciples (13 if you include Judas) were real people, and all of them died under execution, proclaiming Christ to their deaths (minus John, who died in exile), which Jesus actually told them would happen to them (not "You are all going to die for my sake", but He said "In the world you will have tribulation", among other references)

There is an extreme LACK of "alternative events" of the NT, and there are actually over 25k manuscripts of the gospels, which is more copies than "The Iliad" and the works of the ancient Greek philosphers, and with greater consistency

The book of Acts, which follows the Gospels and proceeds Paul's letters, was considered a historical record

There are the occasional scientific and historical predictions in the NT (there's more in the OT, and I would encourage you to Google these yourself), BUT the most interesting is that it predicts that Christianity will be a big trend and many will come to believe (that's more in Revelation)

The major religions you hear of with other people who headed them, Islam, Buddhism, and Hindu (those are the main ones that come to mind) all have the graves of their respective leaders available. Considering the extreme impact of Christianity on our world and culture, and I know this isn't evidence so much as just interesting and powerful, it's worth noting that Christ's grave and body are nowhere to be found

Pontius Pilate (who put Jesus to death) was a real person, the Roman government was indeed an occupying force in the Jewish nation at the time, and there was a significant movement around the time of Jesus' precahing that's never really stopped, even if it's at times slowed, changed, or taken steps in wrong directions

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(October 8, 2017 at 8:28 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: What's the air speed velocity of an unladen African swallow?


And is "unladen" a real word?

African or European? And without looking it up, I think it is - I looked it up, yes it is.

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(October 12, 2017 at 11:36 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote:

(October 9, 2017 at 12:18 am)energizer bunny Wrote: Are you lurking without any intentions of coming back?

Completely different view points and beliefs can make things interesting around here at times. Mainly the reactions to them.

No, I'm back, I just don't have a lot of time this particular week - love your screenname, by the by. And I agree that different view points and beliefs make things more interesting, but we should figure out (not limited to here) how we can be more accepting of other people, even if we disagree with their views.

---

(October 9, 2017 at 10:03 am)Bob Kelso Wrote: Why are you here? Not being a dick, legitimate question.

You guys have the best screennames - I honestly should re-watch "Scrubs" at some point. There are a couple of reasons I'm here - first, I want to help people come to Christ, because having been on both sides, I can say this is the less miserable one. It's not always sunshine and rainbows, but the tough times are less tough, and there's way more direction. I understand not everyone will agree with me, and that's okay - but my other reason is I want greater humanization in the world, because that's a huge problem. People are so quick to dismiss others because they are different for whatever reason, and yet most of us would get along a whole lot more if we put aside our biases and just listened.

---

(October 8, 2017 at 8:29 pm)chimp3 Wrote: I agree! When is torturing and killing your own child because the neighbor kid misbehaved ever a good idea?

First, Alisa, I'm glad you renounced Islam - I've learned more about it in the last 6 months and I'm glad you're out of there. Regarding what you said and what chimp3 got at, have you guys ever heard of "bridge theory"? It's the idea that God is infinitely good, so sin is infinitely bad, and that, to reconcile the broken relationship between God and man (since the Jews couldn't keep the covenant God gave them), something infinite needed to happen to replace all the finite works (which is all we as people are capable of) of the covenant of the Old Testament (which goes waay beyond the 10 Commandments). All the animal sacrifices given by the people were flawed and never kept, so something perfect needed to be given to reconcile all the sin for all time, and that was Jesus' sinless life. 

God didn't allow Jesus to sin so we could have relationship with Him, to answer that question, and to answer the next, we should expect everything from Him BECAUSE He did that. We couldn't atone for ourselves, so Jesus did, and that is an act of extreme sacrificial love such as has never been seen in literature or other religions or in the real world, because sin is infinitely bad in the eyes of God, and yet He sacrificed Jesus for us despite how bad sin mars us in His eyes. And yet we have a hard time seeing people who we disagree with in a loving way (yes, I struggle with that, too).

---

(October 8, 2017 at 8:49 pm)Succubus Wrote: You have the floor.

This is hardly enough space (and I have hardly enough time) to get into all of it. BUT I'll start off with this:

There is extra-Biblical evidence of Jesus' existence (look up the historian "Josephus", he is I think the main historian who wrote about Jesus, besides Luke, who wrote one of the gospels)

All 12 of Jesus' disciples (13 if you include Judas) were real people, and all of them died under execution, proclaiming Christ to their deaths (minus John, who died in exile), which Jesus actually told them would happen to them (not "You are all going to die for my sake", but He said "In the world you will have tribulation", among other references)

There is an extreme LACK of "alternative events" of the NT, and there are actually over 25k manuscripts of the gospels, which is more copies than "The Iliad" and the works of the ancient Greek philosphers, and with greater consistency

The book of Acts, which follows the Gospels and proceeds Paul's letters, was considered a historical record

There are the occasional scientific and historical predictions in the NT (there's more in the OT, and I would encourage you to Google these yourself), BUT the most interesting is that it predicts that Christianity will be a big trend and many will come to believe (that's more in Revelation)

The major religions you hear of with other people who headed them, Islam, Buddhism, and Hindu (those are the main ones that come to mind) all have the graves of their respective leaders available. Considering the extreme impact of Christianity on our world and culture, and I know this isn't evidence so much as just interesting and powerful, it's worth noting that Christ's grave and body are nowhere to be found

Pontius Pilate (who put Jesus to death) was a real person, the Roman government was indeed an occupying force in the Jewish nation at the time, and there was a significant movement around the time of Jesus' precahing that's never really stopped, even if it's at times slowed, changed, or taken steps in wrong directions

---

(October 8, 2017 at 8:28 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: What's the air speed velocity of an unladen African swallow?


And is "unladen" a real word?

I think it is - I looked it up, yes it is. And I had to re-do this because I realized that you did specify (I was reading too quickly after a long day) that it was African, as opposed to leaving it up to interpretation on whether it was African or European. I'll hopefully not be making that mistake again (and no, I don't know the air speed velocity of an unladen African swallow, but I'll probably look it up, I imagine it's pretty high). 

---

(October 8, 2017 at 12:29 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(October 8, 2017 at 12:11 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: Regarding what Brian37 said - it's clear you have a lot of animosity toward the Christian community.

No, it's the Christian belief system itself where I direct my animosity.  I have occasional run-ins with particularly obnoxious believers, but there is no need for you to apologize for them as I do not accept second-hand apologies.  Certainly they had nothing to do with me never believing the Christian mythology -- that ship sailed in 1963/64 after I had read the Bible.

Quote:Scientific prophecies, including the water cycle and isostasy, were also mentioned in the Bible hundreds of years before they were discovered, so I would encourage you do some of your own research in this area and really discover just how deep this rabbit hole goes.

Sounds rather like the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, wherein vaguely-worded scripture is reinterpreted as a prophesy after a discovery is made.  The cultures surrounding ancient Israel were also quite literate and scientifically advanced at that time, so it's entirely possible that the water cycle had already been described elsewhere.

1963/1964 you say - how old are you, if I may ask? And how old were you when you read the Bible? Also, the water cycle wasn't discovered until the 1800s, and while it was theorized a couple hundred years before that by the Chinese, those particular scriptures are fairly specific. Some of them we do have to double-check for our understanding, but think about it - the Bible has to function for people across many thousands of years in many cultures. It has to make sense for people reading it in the time it was written as much as it does for us now, so yes, some passages are going to be vaguely worded, and we have to adjust our understanding a bit as such. 

Hope that helps!

(October 12, 2017 at 11:36 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: 1963/1964 you say - how old are you, if I may ask? And how old were you when you read the Bible?

I just turned 60.  I learned to read at 2½, read the Bible when I was about 6 or 7, and occasionally re-read bits of it.

Quote:Also, the water cycle wasn't discovered until the 1800s, and while it was theorized a couple hundred years before that by the Chinese, those particular scriptures are fairly specific.

I still think that believers are reinterpreting scripture specifically for the purpose of being able to point and say "Look!  This is about the water cycle!"  There's rather a lot that the Bible got wrong, such as the number of legs on an insect and the value of pi (being out by nearly 5%, when neighbouring lands had a much closer approximation, doesn't suggest a god with scientific knowledge.)