Godscreated Wrote: It's not about causing suffering, you can't cause God to suffer anymore. It is about rejecting the One who suffered for you so you wouldn't spend an eternity in hell. You sin against an eternal omnipresent God and any sin that isn't forgiven last forever and thus your suffering will last forever.

But why do people deserve to be punished for believing in what isn't proven? What's so criminal about that?
Doesn't punishing people with hell if they don't believe put the onus on god to provide proof?
At least if he is a moral being? To say nothing of being the most moral being.

(October 13, 2017 at 3:40 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 11, 2017 at 10:01 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Story aside.
If there is a God and that God is an all-powerfull, all-knowing creator of this world, humans can't send themselves to Hell. God would send them to hell. Furthest you could argue is that 'God makes them send themselves to hell', but that is still the same, innit?

 God does sentence the unbelieving to hell, they choose not to believe. Given that they reject God means they have chosen hell. I'm not sure how you could believe that a person isn't responsible for their actions and then reap the consequences. God says He desires no one to perish, this would eliminate your idea that God makes them chose hell.

Well... The God-character can say a lot of things, but...
Do you believe God is all-knowing and all-powerfull and created the universe/world we live in? If you don't , than this argument of mine can be discarded. But if you do, than everything we do and choose and everything being the way it is, is because he pre-chose what we would do and believe and choose.
=> Me not believing in God would be what God created me to do.
If God has an infinite ways of creating the world (all-powerful) and knows how every one of these he chooses to create would turn out (all-knowing) then by picking the one he creates actively predetermines my own choices. He could have created a universe in which everyone would come to believe in him. He then, hypothetically, chose not to do that but to create a universe in which you do believe in him and I don't. Likewise, your belief in him would be predetermined, even though you perhaps see it as your own choice. If there is an all-powerfull, all-knowing entity that sets up the system to it's own desires, it can hardly complain the components don't act in the way it wanted them to.

God cant do anything at all now because the infinity stones are scattered.
But I see the guardians of the galaxy have found a couple and I believe theres one in asgard so who knows.

(October 13, 2017 at 3:40 am)Godscreated Wrote: God does sentence the unbelieving to hell, they choose not to believe. Given that they reject God means they have chosen hell.

If worshipping the creator of hell is the only other choice, then my morality demands that I choose hell.

I don't think that either of those things are real, though, so I'm not worried about it.

Quote:You better have proof of that statement. Just exactly why would Christianity need to have a scare tactic, what would be the purpose.

You need to get out more, GC.  Christianity has always been about money and power.  Look around you.

(October 13, 2017 at 5:31 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: God cant do anything at all now because the infinity stones are scattered.
But I see the guardians of the galaxy have found a couple and I believe theres one in asgard so who knows.

*Was* one in Asgard. I was wondering about that extra-shiny thing in my bowl of semi-precious stones, and why there's suddenly a raccoon in the neighbourhood.  

(October 12, 2017 at 9:15 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: My thoughts on Hell? Simple: it scuppers the free-will argument.

Not really.

(October 13, 2017 at 9:01 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(October 12, 2017 at 9:15 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: My thoughts on Hell? Simple: it scuppers the free-will argument.

Not really.

Yes, really.

First off, there is no hell, or heaven, there are merely humans sold that crap.

What we are addressing is the logic in terms of the claims theist makes.


A real "free" choice, would be saying to oneself, "I feel like having a burger, but at the same time I feel like having a pizza."

The god character of Abraham isn't giving you any real choice. 

The God character, would be the burger joint owner whom hunts you down for not eating at his joint, beats you up for not being loyal and says, "You can eat wherever you want, but if you don't eat at my joint, I will punish you."

THAT IS NOT A CHOICE, that is blackmail.

Now, the real reason this heaven/hell threat exists, isn't because any real God or real Satan exists. Prior to your magic baby book, in prior polytheism, even polytheists had their concepts of reward and punishment in the afterlife.

WHAT both are really reflecting are the loyalty to the local ruling family that most humans lived under in antiquity. Back then your loyalty to your local ruler was mandatory, some ruling families were more tolerant to others, and some were more intolerant of others, but ultimately that family were the ultimate boss.

"God" is a comic book reflection of ROYALTY, nothing more.

We don't value in the west rulers whom don't need our consent. We value in the west the ability to hold our leaders accountable. We can vote them out of office, and even impeach and have them arrested when they break the law. 

I feel sorry for you that you think 

"Give me your wallet and I'll let you live, keep it and I will murder you" is an actual choice. It isn't, it is blackmail, and puts you in the position of being nothing but property, a lab rat. It is the same abusive logic an abusive spouse uses to control their spouse.

It does not reflect modern pluralism one bit. It reflects the societies of antiquity where if you crossed that ruling family you'd get punished. 

"Obey me or else" is arbitrary, and abusive and DOES NOT reflect a consensual choice.

(October 13, 2017 at 9:01 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(October 12, 2017 at 9:15 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: My thoughts on Hell? Simple: it scuppers the free-will argument.

Not really.

No, really. When your soul is held hostage, what decisions of yours aren't tainted by your god's threat of punishment?

Simple experiment. Pick an average person in the street, pull out and gun and point it at their head. Ask them if they believe that you are an alien that created reality.

Works for me every time.

(October 13, 2017 at 10:34 am)Mathilda Wrote: Simple experiment. Pick an average person in the street, pull out and gun and point it at their head. Ask them if they believe that you are an alien that created reality.

Works for me every time.

Um no, lets not be advocating real crime here. I get the sarcasm though. 

Yea it does address the broken logic of trying to attach a free choice to a reward/punishment motif. The deities of antiquity were concocted because humans falsely equated their success as being handed down to them, and back then most humans depended on their local rulers and those rulers were the ultimate bosses.

Crossing God is no different than crossing Kim Jong Un. Sure, God will treat his loyalists well, but dare disagree or try to leave, you suffer his revenge.

I have long liked Hitchen's description of the God character as being the "dear leader" of a "Celestial North Korea".

There is absolutely no morality in "obey me or else".

How the fuck do I "choose" not to believe?

I guess I "chose" to be straight, white and cranky too....