"The Church of Reason"
"All the Fellowship, None of the Dogma"

(August 17, 2011 at 11:55 am)frankiej Wrote: Or you could drink your problems away...

I tried that. My problems increased - both qualitatively and quantitatively. Then I got pancreatitis. Very painful!



Didn't work!

You are not drinking right then... you must be doing it wrong.

Says the Scot. Love it.

(August 17, 2011 at 11:54 am)thesummerqueen Wrote:

(August 17, 2011 at 11:01 am)Godnose Wrote: There is no equivalent to the parish priest to whom I can take my troubles.

Don't need one!

You may not. Many do.

Quote:There are many other communities you CAN join because you're free! For instance, I've been slowly putting my feet into the skeptic community...

Yes, of course. But in my example I was in a hurry, I didn't have time to look for communities to join. I needed advice - RIGHT THEN.

Quote:Also, local atheist "groups" do crop up. ... Search around your area.

I have. There are some humanists. They are a load of old fuddy-duddies. That's it.

Quote:And just for me personally, none of my "advice" givers are family, and only one of them is on this board, and a couple of them are theists. These are people I've met at various jobs I've had or other ways - no need for them to be any sort of authority figure.

You are obviously a gregarious person who finds no problem making friends etc. I'm not like that. I'm pretty insular, and it's extremely seldom that I would ask anyone for advice about anything. So I had no personal "advice network" that i had built up over time. Yet suddenly I was hurled into a really difficult moral dilemma, and when I cast around for help the ONLY person available was the local church minister.

And you know, it may turn out that when actually put to a severe test, your network of advice givers might in fact not prove to be quite as reliable as you suppose.

I suggest the fact that atheists so readily dismiss the value of the priest role in society is a terrific weakness in the viability of atheism as a socially acceptable philosophy.

That last bit is stretching it. A priest may perform the function of mental health counselor, but there are often better qualified people for this (though more and more often priests are given training and certification in some area of mental health). An untrained priest has no validity, academically and clinically speaking, over a PHD in any relevant field. That some priests give excellent advice is unsurprising. Some people give excellent advice, priests are people. There is no weakness in discarding relics with regalia.

A great many internal conflicts are caused by the actions and words of those very same priests, a cynic would accuse them of drumming up business for themselves.

There's nothing implicit within atheism that addresses priests roles separate from messengers of god in the first place.

(August 17, 2011 at 12:36 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: Says the Scot. Love it.

ayeaye, ain't nothing wrong with our drinking habits... Apart from when it gets in the way of social progress.

I have cut down my drinking though. I only drink like twice a week now... i think that is a true miracle.

Being human, and being that their understanding of morality is grounded in the concept of god, what makes ministers have a better understanding of morality than a kid on the street? That's all I'm saying. I'd rather ask a 5 year old what's right and wrong rather than some religious leaders. Counselors, therapists, mediators, people who deal with ethics - they can help as well, and are private.

---

(August 17, 2011 at 12:37 pm)Godnose Wrote: I suggest the fact that atheists so readily dismiss the value of the priest role in society is a terrific weakness in the viability of atheism as a socially acceptable philosophy.

Not a weakness.

Then again, I'm coming from a Jewish background and we don't have a priest equivalent. Rabbis are scholars amongst a "race" of people who are all supposed to be scholarly - much like a philosopher would be a scholar amongst a "race" of atheists who should all be educating themselves on ethics and morality.

Of course, all of this depends on the moral advice you needed - whether you required philosopher, counselor, therapist, etc.

(August 17, 2011 at 11:01 am)Godnose Wrote: What I think is needed is a kind of atheist church, a place where atheists can meet regularly to celebrate their atheism and in order to develop a sense of community. Only how on earth such a thing could be brought about is completely beyond me. Any ideas?

I'm sorry you feel this way, but in most cases the only common denominator we atheists share is that we don't believe in god or gods, that's it. We're not an organised religion or world-view, so we can't hold meetings for political and/or social motives for a lack of belief in something; therefore we have no use for churches, mosques, synagogues or temples.

If you want to socialise why not try taking up hobbies or other past times? One good example is volunteering because at least that way you would pick up new skills and it involves interacting with other people who may share your interests.

I have found that, even as an agnostic or (latterly) an atheist I have been able to get sincere advice from a local vicar or priest, wherever I have lived. None has ever seriously tried to misuse my request for advice in order to try to get me to go to church or join their religion. I have never found anyone else who I can go to as freely, without even knowing them first. OK, the advice has not always been brilliant but I do believe it has always been sincere, and when it is a moral matter then that is often the most important thing. As well, being "objective" in terms of my own life (no connection to any of my family or social circle, etc) is also a valuable attribute. Also the lack of any profit motive (which can so easily confuse matters).

My desire for something equivalent to a church has nothing to do with "socialising", as suggested by Welsh Cake, nor with "hobbies". In any case, if I wanted to socialise why not join a social club rather than the devious method of pretending an interest in pottery or whatever? That seems just as daft as taking up religion. But I don't give a fig about "socialising", if by that you mean standing around "chatting" and suchlike.

My desire for a church-like structure stems from the very fact that I have seen with my own experience that such a structure can be an extremely effective force for good. Yes yes, I know, religion does loads of bad stuff - but what I'm interested in is the good stuff. And it seems to me that most of the good stuff comes from the structure of the local church system.

You never see an atheist jumble sale. Why not? I bet loads of atheists go to church jumble sales. Wouldn't it be better to go to a atheist one, thereby not supporting a cause you disagree with?

Why do atheists feel it so necessary to come across as "cold hearted". There is no reason that I can see why an atheist can't be just as "spiritual", in a non-religious way, as anyone with religion. By "spiritual" I don't mean Oija or ghosts or whatever, I mean as in the "spirit" of something, eg a spirit of friendship, politeness, sincerity, etc. Yet all atheists ever seem to care about is cold logic. So as soon as anyone suggests there is perhaps more to life than physics, then you get booed off the stage.

Anyway, that's how it feels to me.

OK, I know it's probably soft, but I rather like the idea of occasional gatherings of like-minded people to say sing a song together (Lennon's "Imagine" say), someone perhaps reading out a set piece bit of Hume or whoever and then maybe some kind of general exchange of views and information, but not like a pub, but in a more kind of organised way. An assertion of community, in some way.

It seems to me that all sorts of good things could come out of such an organised srtucture. Particularly such as charitibale activity, mentoring and counseling of the kind I've already suggested, and quite possibly other things too. Above all, something that it seems to me to be very much lacking today, as perhaps illustrated by recent events in our towns and cities, which I can only describe as "social cohesion".

After all, there's more to life than logic.