Timeless universe would need time to change into time universe. If it was point zero, it would be eternal. So eternal universe all of sudden causes time, ceases to be eternal, and turns into a morphing universe changing and creates time.

I don't think that is rational to believe, and if it was possible to consider as hypothetically possible, it's a lot more irrational than belief in God which seems to be the simplest and best explanation in this regard. 

Verified with many other proofs like the eternalness of morality, the judge who makes us inherit our actions, the system by which we achieve moral ranks an ranks of honor, the skies by which are our actions ascend to and rain of light comes down from, as well as the witness who defines everything as is, and gives everything it's creation,  there really is no reason to go with the magic eternal universe that causes time then shifts to applying all sorts of new rules to it's components that come with time - it frankly is silly.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:10 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 2:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: That first force needs to be something that is not bound by the same laws as everything else in the natural, physical world/universe. Which is why we say it was a supernatural force.

. . . outside time/space but somehow acting as a cause.

Yep, sounds solid.

Dude, it's not actually "outside of space and time" it's "outside space and time whenever it wants to be but inside space and time whenever it wants to be too", I mean duh. Yea I know that there's no explanation for why this God actually exists or how this God can do that but don't you see! God needs no explanation! God is the explanation! God is used to explain everything else!

Good you understand. Next is acceptance of the truth^

A state of nature can change but nature it remains . Applying cause or the current state of physics to the wider cosmos or a pre current universe  is fallacious CL . And no saying you see things have a cause or come from somewhere IN  the universe again says nothing about the origins OF  universe .

(November 28, 2017 at 2:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It also must be timeless and be able to create time, ...

EXACTLY!!! Even the Koran says, "Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth, lest they vanish. And if they should cease, no one could hold them [in place] after Him." (Fatir 35:41)

God is not just the Creator but also the Sustainer.

(November 28, 2017 at 11:50 am)SteveII Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 11:08 am)Whateverist Wrote: What is wrong with saying the universe is contingent at every moment upon its prior states and we just don't know how far back those go, nor whether they extend beyond the range of what we locally call the big bang.

Your just pushing the problem back a step each time. You can't have an infinite regress, so it has to stop somewhere. For the sake of argument, "the universe" is used to hold the place of some point in the past.

I have no idea if the regress is infinite or not but it may well be regardless of your druthers.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:23 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: A state of nature can change but nature it remains . Applying cause or the current state of physics to the wider cosmos or a pre current universe  is fallacious CL . And no saying you see things have a cause or come from somewhere IN  the universe again says nothing about the origins OF  universe .

It says a lot.  But you guys are in denial. Really, that is all there is to Atheism. Denial of proofs and the clear design of the world we are in.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:21 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Good you understand. Next is acceptance of the truth^

We understand that it's crap . And accept the truth of it as such.

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(November 28, 2017 at 2:24 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 2:23 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: A state of nature can change but nature it remains . Applying cause or the current state of physics to the wider cosmos or a pre current universe  is fallacious CL . And no saying you see things have a cause or come from somewhere IN  the universe again says nothing about the origins OF  universe .

It says a lot.  But you guys are in denial. Really, that is all there is to Atheism. Denial of proofs and the clear design of the world we are in.

So just more empty posturing . But really it's all you have.

The seeing one who hears our hearts and maintains the value of every soul in exact measurement has been proven time and time again. Keep at it with your denial, see where it will lead you.

(November 28, 2017 at 2:24 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 2:23 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: A state of nature can change but nature it remains . Applying cause or the current state of physics to the wider cosmos or a pre current universe  is fallacious CL . And no saying you see things have a cause or come from somewhere IN  the universe again says nothing about the origins OF  universe .

It says a lot.  But you guys are in denial. Really, that is all there is to Atheism. Denial of proofs and the clear design of the world we are in.

In clear denial that it was designed but well aware of the hand in glove fit manner in which the puddle gloriously fits the hole in which it sits.  Really that is all there is to god belief, you behold the puddle and imagine God almighty as having crafted it like a boss.

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(November 28, 2017 at 11:50 am)SteveII Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 11:08 am)Whateverist Wrote: What is wrong with saying the universe is contingent at every moment upon its prior states and we just don't know how far back those go, nor whether they extend beyond the range of what we locally call the big bang.

Your just pushing the problem back a step each time. You can't have an infinite regress, so it has to stop somewhere. For the sake of argument, "the universe" is used to hold the place of some point in the past.

Oh wait, I forgot what this argument was based on: God or we don't have a comprehensive explanation of the universe.  Guess what, we don't have a complete explanation.  Life goes on.