(November 28, 2017 at 9:27 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Your assessment here reminds me of Jung and Joseph Campbell, whose work I find fascinating.The miasma comment channels Nietzsche. Also a fav of mine. IDK the etymology of the word "Israel" but it sounds like an eye-opener. 

"He who struggles with god".  More literally, he who grapples with god - the point of the story of Jacobs transformation to Israel in Genesis, a seminal event in the establishment myth-come-legend, whereby he violently extorts the lord of the cosmos into bestowing a blessing upon him..because...like a vampire, god has to flit off before sunrise and Jacob just won't let him go.

(November 28, 2017 at 9:35 pm)Khemikal Wrote: "He who struggles with god".  More literally, he who grapples with god - the point of the story of Jacobs transformation to Israel in Genesis, a seminal event in the establishment myth-come-legend, whereby he violently extorts the lord of the cosmos into bestowing a blessing upon him..because...like a vampire, god has to flit off before sunrise and Jacob just won't let him go.

Interesting. I am curious as to your religious background/lack thereof before you accepted the plausibility of atheism. Would you disclose it?

EDIT: I, myself, was a Catholic boy converted to atheism by Karl Marx when I was 16, if you cared to know.

(November 28, 2017 at 9:48 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Interesting. I am curious as to your religious background/lack thereof before you accepted the plausibility of atheism. Would you disclose it?

Sure, I don't have one.  I never had the misfortune of having to approach atheism as a plausibility.  So I don't have any of the hangups I commonly see in people coming at it from "the other direction", trying to make sense of this or that without a god.

Plenty of nuts of various stripes in my family, though.  Holy rollers like my gg on down to hippie pagans like my mother who did (and still does) believe in fairies and magic. The myths, for me..have always been myths. Curiosities that others believed in. OTOH, I collected (and still collect) myths like other kids collected baseball cards. My kids get a kick out of it. I recounted Beowulf to them, full on storyteller mode...to cover the time in our last roadtrip and shut their yapping mouths.

(November 28, 2017 at 9:59 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 9:48 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Interesting. I am curious as to your religious background/lack thereof before you accepted the plausibility of atheism. Would you disclose it?

Sure, I don't have one.  I never had the misfortune of having to approach atheism as a plausibility.  So I don't have any of the hangups I commonly see in people coming at it from "the other direction", trying to make sense of this or that without a god.

Plenty of nuts of various stripes in my family, though.  Holy rollers like my gg on down to hippie pagans like my mother who did (and still does) believe in fairies and magic.

I envy you, man. In my family, when it became clear that I did not believe in God, there was a kerfuffle. I met with resistance. Granted, I didn't have a family of evangelicals or anything. My decision was pretty much respected, but still, there was alienation involved. Doesn't that tell you something about religion? Religion involves an implicit imperative that acts contrary to nature: "deny your loved ones for the sake of some ideal." This is amoral and counter-productive. But I guess Jesus was pretty upfront about this; he did say that he came with a sword to divide brother against brother or something like that.

"Jesus" said alot of things. 

(November 28, 2017 at 9:59 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 9:48 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Interesting. I am curious as to your religious background/lack thereof before you accepted the plausibility of atheism. Would you disclose it?

Sure, I don't have one.  I never had the misfortune of having to approach atheism as a plausibility.  So I don't have any of the hangups I commonly see in people coming at it from "the other direction", trying to make sense of this or that without a god.

Plenty of nuts of various stripes in my family, though.  Holy rollers like my gg on down to hippie pagans like my mother who did (and still does) believe in fairies and magic.  The myths, for me..have always been myths.  Curiosities that others believed in.  OTOH, I collected (and still collect) myths like other kids collected baseball cards.  My kids get a kick out of it.  I recounted Beowulf to them, full on storyteller style...to cover the time in our last roadtrip and shut their yapping mouths.

(November 28, 2017 at 10:08 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 9:59 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Sure, I don't have one.  I never had the misfortune of having to approach atheism as a plausibility.  So I don't have any of the hangups I commonly see in people coming at it from "the other direction", trying to make sense of this or that without a god.

Plenty of nuts of various stripes in my family, though.  Holy rollers like my gg on down to hippie pagans like my mother who did (and still does) believe in fairies and magic.

I envy you, man. In my family, when it became clear that I did not believe in God, there was a kerfuffle. I met with resistance. Granted, I didn't have a family of evangelicals or anything. My decision was pretty much respected, but still, there was alienation involved. Doesn't that tell you something about religion? Religion involves an implicit imperative that acts contrary to nature: "deny your loved ones for the sake of some ideal." This is amoral and counter-productive. But I guess Jesus was pretty upfront about this; he did say that he came with a sword to divide brother against brother or something like that.

It gets better with time, I was actually raised as a Jehovah's Witness which I left at 16 (as soon as my parents said i could make my own choices) which led to all manners of discord, which to a degree i understood. I believe the indoctrination left me emotionally immature in some ways.

The 'god' bug though was very strong and later in life I got involved with a baptist church,  I always had believed in a god and got involved with a much more traditional church, which for me , now an adult i fared much better.  I became very active in my faith, I identified  with the closeness of god, the holy spirit, indeed i was very winsome with my faith and had about 30 or so spiritual (people i had the then honour of guiding to faith) children , many of which keep in touch despite my rejection of faith, in fact they still come to me for advice. I lost a great deal of friends, kept others (who pray for me) to be fair i think it's simply awkward for them i have rejected what is most dear to their hearts and that's hard to take.

The road out is as complex as the one in, it takes years to unravel what it took years to indoctrinate but bit by bit is does unravel and I no longer fear any backlash,  i am finding a new found freedom especially in the area of discovery, science, and the people around me, now not having to filter everything through the irrational filter of religion, i can see clearly now.  The road out can be very hard, and very costly..  but it is worth the journey.

Richard Dawkins "The Greatest Show on Earth". Hands down the greatest book that proves that xtianity is a fairy-tale.

(November 28, 2017 at 9:35 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 28, 2017 at 9:27 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Your assessment here reminds me of Jung and Joseph Campbell, whose work I find fascinating.The miasma comment channels Nietzsche. Also a fav of mine. IDK the etymology of the word "Israel" but it sounds like an eye-opener. 

"He who struggles with god".  More literally, he who grapples with god - the point of the story of Jacobs transformation to Israel in Genesis, a seminal event in the establishment myth-come-legend, whereby he violently extorts the lord of the cosmos into bestowing a blessing upon him..because...like a vampire, god has to flit off before sunrise and Jacob just won't let him go.

For Pete's sake that's a twisted interpretation.

Come again?

Quote:22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions.24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a]because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[b] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,[c] and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

So sayeth magic book.  Should I defer to your authority, instead? If you think it's silly..well..welcome to the club..but that's a conversation for you to have with your god, not me.

(November 29, 2017 at 11:02 am)Khemikal Wrote: Come again?

Quote:22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions.24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a]because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[b] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,[c] and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

So sayeth magic book.  Should I defer to your authority, instead?  If you think it's silly..well..welcome to the club..but that's a conversation for you to have with your god, not me.

Come now, you should know better, scriptures are only to be taken literally or in context when quoted by a Christian, and then only when beneficial to the argument.