We've had this discussion with regard to civil war greats like General Lee, and now with cinematic greats like Harvey Weinstein.  I'm pretty sure if we knew more about Socrates or Sam Harris, about Ghandi or about Joe Rogan, we'd find quite the horror.

I've looked in my mirror more, and I have to say that I've seen the entire gamut of horrors and greatness in myself-- deep, deep depravity, inexplicable generosity, complete selfishness, and life-risking altruism.

Is it possible that Cosby, when he's in the public, actually IS a great guy?  Or is it that he is always, 24/7, a monster, and he's hiding the truth?  Am I a 24/7 monster too, someone who has imagined rape, murder, theft or violence in the past, but have had either the discipline (or the simple lack of opportunity) to keep my actions under control?

The Nazis did a lot of unpleasant experiments in the field of exposure to the elements and how to treat it.

Should they be discounted because of they way they were done?

I don't watch John or Tom movies any more.

(December 17, 2017 at 7:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: We've had this discussion with regard to civil war greats like General Lee,

Uhm... What exactly did this "great" general Lee achieve, that you are now expected to discard?

(December 17, 2017 at 7:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: and now with cinematic greats like Harvey Weinstein. 

Same question.

(December 17, 2017 at 7:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: I'm pretty sure if we knew more about Socrates or Sam Harris, about Ghandi or about Joe Rogan, we'd find quite the horror.

Like what? You imagine Sam Harris is a notorious rapist? Or that Joe Rogan is a traitor, who fights to keep black people enslaved? You seem to think, that demented sociopaths constitute a much larger percentage of the population, than is the case.

(December 17, 2017 at 7:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: I've looked in my mirror more, and I have to say that I've seen the entire gamut of horrors and greatness in myself-- deep, deep depravity, inexplicable generosity, complete selfishness, and life-risking altruism.

That's nice. Keep looking in your mirror - that's surely the best way to learn about the world...

(December 17, 2017 at 7:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: Is it possible that Cosby, when he's in the public, actually IS a great guy? 

Define a "great guy". Is it someone, who can live with the thought, that he raped countless women and got away with it, and that he would rape more, if he could, then - yes he's a "great guy"...

(December 17, 2017 at 7:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: Or is it that he is always, 24/7, a monster, and he's hiding the truth?  Am I a 24/7 monster too, someone who has imagined rape, murder, theft or violence in the past, but have had either the discipline (or the simple lack of opportunity) to keep my actions under control?

No, you just fail to realize the distance, that a "normal" human being has to cross, in order to go from imagining horrible things and performing them in a calculated manner. The people you mention did not commit some sort of a "crime of passion" - they planned their actions, consciously abused people and took substantial measures to avoid consequences. They deserve punishment - what is your point?

If that's rape and murder are things you can honestly see yourself doing, given opportunity, then perhaps you are a "24/7 monster".

(December 17, 2017 at 7:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: We've had this discussion with regard to civil war greats like General Lee, and now with cinematic greats like Harvey Weinstein.  I'm pretty sure if we knew more about Socrates or Sam Harris, about Ghandi or about Joe Rogan, we'd find quite the horror.

I've looked in my mirror more, and I have to say that I've seen the entire gamut of horrors and greatness in myself-- deep, deep depravity, inexplicable generosity, complete selfishness, and life-risking altruism.

Is it possible that Cosby, when he's in the public, actually IS a great guy?  Or is it that he is always, 24/7, a monster, and he's hiding the truth?  Am I a 24/7 monster too, someone who has imagined rape, murder, theft or violence in the past, but have had either the discipline (or the simple lack of opportunity) to keep my actions under control?

No, I am no fan of hiding history, good or bad. Cosby's character is just that and I don't think it is fair to his co stars who had no clue to punish them. Hitler was a monster too, but Germans still have the highway system he built. Today's Germans should not be punished for what Hitler did.

I found myself cringing (and worse) watching an episode of Keeping Up Appearances on PBS last night. (Hyacinth was groped and kissed by a 'friend' of her husbands). It was played for laughs, but it was like watching a prelude to a rape.

Damn . . . .

The best of men are men at best.

I'm really impressed with the fourth last sentence that homeless nutter wrote and I so agree.
I think I'll keep that sentence, maybe even pass it off as my own in some future philosophical debate. (Not here of course). :-)

Should we discard their achievements?  No

Should we honor them less, yes

As for Robert E Lee, should there be a bust of him in a classroom dedicated to military tactics at the west point? Yes. Should his equestrian statue grace a plinth in front of a court house or a state legislature? No.

Newton was an ass. Don't even get me started on Tesla.