There's a woman in my role playing group who said that she is autistic. I wouldn't have realised otherwise. And not because i am unfamiliar with it.

Men's rights movement is totally stupid. Men have controlled the reigns of power for thousands of years, do not have a massive historical record of being discriminated against.

It also seems to be full of creepers angry at women for not getting laid.

If feminism and men's rights activism is simply a group of people trying to raise awareness about women's and men's issues respectively, I think that's a good thing. Just as raising awareness for any problem is a good thing. A person can be involved in either, depending on what hits most close to home for them, without being "against" the other. For example, if I was part of some Alzheimer's association to raise awareness about that disease, that doesn't mean I'm going to be against Aids awareness groups.

So theres nothing wrong with feminism and MRAism per se. They both have valid points because both men and women have their own issues and their own disadvantages. It's when they start making each other the enemy and/or gaining some sort of disproportionate victim complex, that's annoying.

(December 19, 2017 at 5:11 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 5:02 pm)alpha male Wrote: If you're a real man conducting yourself with honor, discipline and intelligence, you won't need a movement to protect you. Things will naturally work out in your favor.

Meanwhile...in the real world.

That is the real world. Also in the real world these guys have helped no one. Feminism at least takes positive action to help women move towards a more equal society. Ironically most of these guys just seem to bitch about stuff.

Also there is almost NO intellectual base or history for it, compared to feminism, which has whole sections of philosophers and academics that goes back more than a century. Mras seem mostly to be made up of angry neckbeards on the internet.

A rare moment I agree with alphadouche a real man can take care of his own shit.

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(December 20, 2017 at 2:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If feminism and men's rights activism is simply a group of people trying to raise awareness about women's and men's issues respectively, I think that's a good thing.

They aren't those two things though. Look at the history of the two groups. Feminism has a deep and rich intellectual history that goes back to prominent philosophers like Simone de Beauvoir and has a heavy academic history in universities around the world.

MRAs?? Not much of any of that. And today they are heavily tied to the alt-right. Listen to Milo hammer on about men's rights makes me roll my eyes. These guys seem like they know very little about how to actually be a man.

(December 20, 2017 at 2:12 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Men's rights movement is totally stupid. Men have controlled the reigns of power for thousands of years, do not have a massive historical record of being discriminated against.

It also seems to be full of creepers angry at women for not getting laid.

This.

Every person I've ever seen that's identified as a MRA has been some douche-nozzle who's upset that women aren't falling over themselves to sleep with them, and how that, in itself, is a crime not just against him but all men. That women are bitches because they don't want to be reduced to sexual objects or domestic servants. Some are blatant about it, others are more insidious (like that idiot from Google who wrote a manifesto about how women aren't biologically wired to be engineers), but the MRA 'movement' is filled with that kind of troglodyte.

(December 20, 2017 at 5:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: As a younger man, I felt that my Men's Rights were being violated because of the astonishing number of women who declined to sleep with me.  Bigots, the lot of them.

Boru

I know you are being ironic, but I do believe that's probably the basis for most of that nonsense.

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(December 20, 2017 at 7:54 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 5:02 pm)alpha male Wrote: If you're a real man conducting yourself with honor, discipline and intelligence, you won't need a movement to protect you. Things will naturally work out in your favor.

Shame you can't say that about 'real women' conducting themselves with honour, discipline and intelligence.

I think alpha male unwittingly showed why we need feminism and not mras. If a man generally conducts himself okay, things do work out for him. A woman has to do that and waaaay more, because she also has to fufill societal expectations of femininity as well.

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There are some shocking stats out there. 5% of fortune 500 CEOs are women. That's why you need feminism and not mras. Feminism is about more than egalitarianism, it's about correcting thousands of years of sexism that lead to many of the imbalances in society we see today. Since neither the history not nor the imbalances exist for men, there is no need for MRAs.

Men get harsher sentence for assault? Well no shit. Because it's way worse to be assaulted by a man. It's going to be a more violent experience 98% of the time. The history of mens rights activists is a gross and unsettling one tied to a lot of right wing unpleasantness and more than ever today.

I've never met an MRA person, but when I watched the documentary, they do raise some valid points. Things I had never considered or thought of before.

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And Cap, as for the CEO and other more high powered jobs thing, that may just be because women generally tend to be less career orientated than men.

...Because most of us do go on to get pregnant and have children, and when that happens, we tend to prioritize that above all else. Women can still work and get pregnant and take care of their babies, but they probably won't have AS MUCH time and energy for work related stuff because they have to balance that with the demands of pregnancy and motherhood. Since we are the ones who get pregnant and breastfeed, it is only natural that human society evolved as the women staying home to do that while the father goes out to work to provide for us, bring home the food that feeds us, etc. I know it doesn't have to be that way now a days bc we have baby sitters and day care and all that, and we can even use baby formula and have the dad stay home with the baby instead of the mom. But it still plays a major role.

I think the lack of women in demanding, high powered jobs is mostly because of that^ rather than because women are somehow being discriminated against in the work force.

Given the history of oppression against women, CL, I doubt it's as simple as all that. Remember, white guys hated us more than black people, whom the white-wigged white guys really hated. So much so, that we only got the vote in the last century. There's no denying the oppression's there.

(December 20, 2017 at 2:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never met an MRA person, but when I watched the documentary, they do raise some valid points. Things I had never considered or thought of before.

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And Cap, as for the CEO and other more high powered jobs thing, that may just be because women generally tend to be less career orientated than men.

...Because most of us do go on to get pregnant and have children, and when that happens, we tend to prioritize that above all else. Women can still work and get pregnant and take care of their babies, but they probably won't have AS MUCH time and energy for work related stuff because they have to balance that with the demands of pregnancy and motherhood. Since we are the ones who get pregnant and breastfeed, it is only natural that human society evolved as the women staying home to do that while the father goes out to work to provide for us, bring home the food that feeds us, etc. I know it doesn't have to be that way now a days bc we have baby sitters and day care and all that, and we can even use baby formula and have the dad stay home with the baby instead of the mom. But it still plays a major role.

I think the lack of women in demanding, high powered jobs is mostly because of that^ rather than because women are somehow being discriminated against in the work force.

5% Catholiclady, not 35%, not 30%. I think that the explanation given for the wage gap, but it's a totally unsatisfactory one for the leadership gap. Oh, women don't want to be ceos, they'd much rather breastfeed. What nonsense. The women who want to be CEOs are a self selecting group, just like the men who want to, and there is probably little crossover between them and stay at home mommies.

Plus, if it's all about egalitarianism like MRAs claim, then men can take care of the kids and the number would be more even, not less. Their arguments are shit and not even consistent, like that one.

They can decide if they want to copy feminism or just nay say everything. Because they have no philosophical leg to stand on.

(December 20, 2017 at 5:52 pm)Shell B Wrote: Given the history of oppression against women, CL, I doubt it's as simple as all that. Remember, white guys hated us more than black people, whom the white-wigged white guys really hated. So much so, that we only got the vote in the last century. There's no denying the oppression's there.

I get that theres been a lot of oppression in the past, but we are talking about today.

I feel like there aren't more women CEO's or whatever because less women than men are interested in that sort of thing, and/or they put more priority in motherhood. It's faulty to point to the lack of women in high powered career fields and assume it's because women aren't given the same opportunity simply for being female.

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(December 20, 2017 at 6:00 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 2:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never met an MRA person, but when I watched the documentary, they do raise some valid points. Things I had never considered or thought of before.

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And Cap, as for the CEO and other more high powered jobs thing, that may just be because women generally tend to be less career orientated than men.

...Because most of us do go on to get pregnant and have children, and when that happens, we tend to prioritize that above all else. Women can still work and get pregnant and take care of their babies, but they probably won't have AS MUCH time and energy for work related stuff because they have to balance that with the demands of pregnancy and motherhood. Since we are the ones who get pregnant and breastfeed, it is only natural that human society evolved as the women staying home to do that while the father goes out to work to provide for us, bring home the food that feeds us, etc. I know it doesn't have to be that way now a days bc we have baby sitters and day care and all that, and we can even use baby formula and have the dad stay home with the baby instead of the mom. But it still plays a major role.

I think the lack of women in demanding, high powered jobs is mostly because of that^ rather than because women are somehow being discriminated against in the work force.

5% Catholiclady, not 35%, not 30%. I think that the explanation given for the wage gap, but it's a totally unsatisfactory one for the leadership gap. Oh, women don't want to be ceos, they'd much rather breastfeed. What nonsense. The women who want to be CEOs are a self selecting group, just like the men who want to, and there is probably little crossover between them and stay at home mommies.

Plus, if it's all about egalitarianism like MRAs claim, then men can take care of the kids and the number would be more even, not less. Their arguments are shit and not even consistent, like that one.

They can decide if they want to copy feminism or just nay say everything. Because they have no philosophical leg to stand on.

Why is that nonesense? You think being a mom is less dignified and less fulfilling? What do you think then is the reason? You think women are being unfairly discriminated against in the work force?

I don't think there's anything alarming about the 5% number. There are very few women pilots as well (5%, actually), and it's not because they aren't allowed to be or because sexism is holding them back. Some jobs are just more male orientated and/or require a lot of time and dedication that many women don't prioritize because they are mothers.