I don't know about the Men's Right Movement,

but I dress to the left.

Sorry

Mine usually only fits upwards because that's the direction it tends to travel (read grow).

Men's Rights Activist is just a term for Anti-Feminist. At least in my experience. I'm not denying that men aren't disadvantaged in some areas -- just that 90% of all Men's Rights Activists don't actually give a shit about men's issues, and only care about being anti-feminist and minimizing the problems women face (and getting out of paying child support). Which is a shame, because men could use a group actually working on their problems instead of spending time bitching about how unfair it is that women won't sleep with them. Maybe there is one, and I've just never heard of it.

I agree that Egalitarian can do a lot to dismiss the concerns of feminism because they would rather define feminists by their fringe elements. It's the same bullshit people do with ALL LIVES MATTER. You can tell, because people say "I'm not a feminist, I'm an Egalitarian." Which implies that ONE is not part of the other. You can't say "I'm not a feminist, I'm an Egalitarian," because technically by definition one has to be a Feminist to be a fucking egalitarian. Just like you can't ask "Black Lives Matter OR All Lives Matter". Because one is SUPPOSED TO FUCKING INCLUDE THE OTHER. It creates what we like to call a FALSE DILEMMA.

I'm a Feminist who supports many men's issues. I think that male suicide rates need to come down, I think men should get as much paternity leave as women get maternity leave (which needs to be more than it does now). I think GOOD FATHERS should get to see their children as often as GOOD MOTHERS and more than BAD MOTHERS. (child custody should NOT be about mom or dad, but about the fucking kids and what's best for them). I think the selective service should be abolished entirely. I don't think either parent should be off the hook for child support (the whole financial abortion bullshit put forward by some people is absolutely ridiculously stupid)

People may try to say "Well, you're an egalitarian!" Not really. Maybe I will be when we are actually closer to equality than we currently are. But right now, we're nowhere near close. That doesn't mean I will dismiss the issues men have. But I'm going to focus more on women's issues. Not just because they effect me more -- and obviously, as a woman, they do. But because more work needs to be done on the feminism side. Because let's be honest. Nobody has ever said "Do you really want a man running the country?" But I've heard several people ask "Do you really want a woman running the country?" That doesn't mean I'll compromise on things like Paternity leave in order to get more maternity leave for women. But it does mean my efforts will be more concentrated on feminist issues. And if people have a problem with that, well too fucking bad. You don't have to like anything I do. You aren't my father, and you aren't my mother. And I'm an adult, so even if you were, it'd still be too fucking bad.

(December 21, 2017 at 2:36 am)Tiberius Wrote: There isn't a standard, but the prevalence of the "crazy" feminists and MRAs can't just be ignored. They are extremely vocal, and that reflects badly on the feminist movement in general. At this point, if someone tells me they are a "feminist", they could very well fall into several different sub-types. There's massive disagreements within feminism regarding sex positivity, to use one example.

Sure, Tibs. It's completely fair and reasonable to cast aspersions about the integrity of ENTIRE movement, because you're apparently unable to stop clicking on feminist extremists' Youtube channels.

"They just can't be ignored." 

LOL....Sure they can, if you can somehow manage to divorce yourself from your commitment to confirmation bias.

(December 21, 2017 at 2:12 am)Thena323 Wrote: And frankly, I don't care if you're butthurt by my categorizing the people who choose to refer to "egalitarianism" as a means of dismissing legitimate sociopolitical movements as being dissimulating, disingenuous assholes, because you they ARE. 

Quote:Tiberious wrote
You've yet to demonstrate that.

heh heh....Don't need to. You've done a BANG-UP JOB of demonstrating that all by yourself.

Note how you whine about my alleged "unfair labeling of egalitarians" while simultaneously bitching about all of those "batshit crazy" feminists who are out to get "discredit" you, and you how you automatically defaulted to the (wrongful) assumption that I was making an assessment based on your "white maleness". 

You've shown a remarkable willingness to employ woefully slopping thinking in regards to feminism that I'm almost certain wouldn't cut it for you in regards to most anything else.

Quote:You think I'm an alt-right sympathizer? Now you really are being hilarious.

No, I used to think that you might be.

Now I KNOW.  

It is a fact: You clearly share many of the anti-feminist sentiments of the MRA/Alt Right movements.
That, by definition makes you a sympathizer, does it not?

Now, I understand that that's probably not something you'd feel comfortable confessing to, given the left-leaning tilt of this forum. But no worries, Kitten...
Your little secret's safe with me.

"Mainstream feminism is good. You can't judge us all by the fringe elements." Proceeds to behave exactly like the supposed "fringe" elements.

(December 21, 2017 at 12:00 pm)Shell B Wrote: "Mainstream feminism is good. You can't judge us all by the fringe elements." Proceeds to behave exactly like the supposed "fringe" elements.

By doing what? Voicing my opinion? 
Arguing my points?

Show me where I've made disparaging remarks about "evil men" anywhere in this thread. Or insinuated that men didn't have real problems and/or that their concerns shouldn't be addressed.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Tib's is the most chill and reasonable person here. That you're attacking his character really takes away any credibility that you might have had.

(December 21, 2017 at 12:09 pm)Thena323 Wrote:

(December 21, 2017 at 12:00 pm)Shell B Wrote: "Mainstream feminism is good. You can't judge us all by the fringe elements." Proceeds to behave exactly like the supposed "fringe" elements.

By doing what? Voicing my opinion? 
Arguing my points?

Show me where I've made disparaging remarks about "evil men" anywhere in this thread. Or insinuated that men didn't have real problems and/or that their concerns shouldn't be addressed.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Anyone who disagrees with you is an Alt-Right/MRA sympathizer. You bring up your race as if anyone cares or even knows what color you are. Congratulations, you're what's wrong with feminism.

P.S. No one's going to ban you for being a crabby patty.

(December 21, 2017 at 11:47 am)Thena323 Wrote: Sure, Tibs. It's completely fair and reasonable to cast aspersions about the integrity of ENTIRE movement, because you're apparently unable to stop clicking on feminist extremists' Youtube channels.

I didn't say the integrity of the entire movement is affected, but they do reflect badly on the movement. As long as they use the term "feminist" they will do that. As I've stated before, there's division within the movement anyway, usually with sex positivism. Some feminists oppose sex workers and think they are anti-feminist, some feminists say sex workers are pro-feminist because they are free to use their bodies how they like. Egalitarians believe the latter.

Quote:"They just can't be ignored." 

LOL....Sure they can, if you can somehow manage to divorce yourself from your commitment to confirmation bias.

You can ignore them, sure, but you do so at your peril. As long as they remain in focus of the media, they will corrupt feminism further.

(December 21, 2017 at 2:12 am)Thena323 Wrote: heh heh....Don't need to. You've done a BANG-UP JOB of demonstrating that all by yourself.

Note how you whine about my alleged "unfair labeling of egalitarians" while simultaneously bitching about all of those "batshit crazy" feminists who are out to get "discredit" you, and you how you automatically defaulted to the (wrongful) assumption that I was making an assessment based on your "white maleness". 

You've shown a remarkable willingness to employ woefully slopping thinking in regards to feminism that I'm almost certain wouldn't cut it for you in regards to most anything else.

Ok, firstly my comment about it being code for "white male" was a joke. I kinda thought that was obvious, but perhaps not. I missed your sarcasm earlier, so you're forgiven for missing mine.

I'm just telling you what it's like arguing with some feminists online, they will legitimately try to discredit my opinion just because I'm a man, which is the pinnacle of irony seeing as that's one of the things feminism is supposed to be against. They use terms like "mansplaining" too. So yeah, I reserve my right to bitch about the batshit crazy feminists, and point out that I'm not referring to regular feminists when I do that. Most feminists I know don't act the way the fringe groups do, but still, the fringe groups are a real, vocal, problem. Problems like them don't just go away by ignoring them.

Quote:No, I used to think that you might be.

Now I KNOW.  

It is a fact: You clearly share many of the anti-feminist sentiments of the MRA/Alt Right movements.
That, by definition makes you a sympathizer, does it not?

Now, I understand that that's probably not something you'd feel comfortable confessing to, given the left-leaning tilt of this forum. But no worries, Kitten...
Your little secret's safe with me.

Ok, so firstly I'm not anti-feminist, I am a feminist. I'm personally against using the term "feminist" as a label since I think it's corrupted by the fringe groups, and for that reason I also don't use the term "MRA" to describe myself either. "Egalitarian" is a perfect word because it's all-encompassing.

Secondly, even if I did share some of the sentiments of MRA/Alt-Right movements, that doesn't make me a sympathizer. Most people are a blend of different political views. Am I a Trump sympathizer because I supported his rejection of the TPP? Hardly. I oppose the man, I don't think he should be President, and I'll vote against him in 2020, but just because we agree on a few things doesn't make me a sympathizer.

Finally, I backed Bernie Sanders, who is pretty much as far left a candidate as you can get in American politics and still be viable. We still have a Bernie Sanders bumper sticker on the back of our car. Politically I'm more of a centrist libertarian. I reject the alt-right, I find them disgusting.

(December 21, 2017 at 2:36 am)Tiberius Wrote: Equality under the law and equality in society (one could argue they are the same thing).

There's a reason why the terms de jure and de facto were imported into our language, and that's because the existence of the two separate states of affairs is obvious in most cases -- especially in our own society. It's the same reason the 1964 CRA didn't eliminate racism (which is simply the belief in inequality) even though it made all Americans legally equal.