(December 25, 2017 at 5:26 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Actually, yes, I am nitpicking. Because my argument here isnt that women cant get relatively low-status jobs like secretary or nurse. Its that they are less likely to be CEOs or surgeons. And in the example you provided earlier, even in the case of a low status job like bouncer, you wouldve still gone for men over women in most cases. You were being selective yourself by conveniently selecting between two specific members.

(December 25, 2017 at 8:07 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: 2. You confuse patriarchy with men . Patriarchy is not a evil group of men who are oppressing women. It's a cultural idea(often held by men and women ) that locks woman and men into a certain  social context  . Often to the detriment of both genders. 

Devil's advocate here. I remember reading some time back that CEOs tend to be "taller than average" and that being over six-feet-tall was commonplace among CEOs.

Anyway, isn't "patriarchy" a bit too broad of a brush to paint with? Women on average are not as tall as men. Perhaps other factors (like height) come into play that have little to do with patriarchy or traditional gender roles, but still add to the disparity between genders concerning professional pursuits.

Tizheruk, I don't identify as feminist nor MRA. So I try to keep an open mind about those topics. I'm seeing the point about trying to change societies thinking as a whole, but I don't see how it is possible. Maybe for future generations it can work. Like maybe in the year 3000 when everyone is pressured to be gender fluid.

But it also seems to me like the last of the patriarchy as you call it, is not going without a fight. Hence why Trump is president etc. But That's a different story. Just looking at it from an outsiders/neutral perspective. Sorry for making that conversation about the radical feminist. But I do find those interactions very entertaining and funny. It actually happened in this thread. Again apologies for being immature and finding it funny. I need to stop this patriarchy.

(December 25, 2017 at 8:21 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(December 25, 2017 at 5:26 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Actually, yes, I am nitpicking. Because my argument here isnt that women cant get relatively low-status jobs like secretary or nurse. Its that they are less likely to be CEOs or surgeons. And in the example you provided earlier, even in the case of a low status job like bouncer, you wouldve still gone for men over women in most cases. You were being selective yourself by conveniently selecting between two specific members.

(December 25, 2017 at 8:07 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: 2. You confuse patriarchy with men . Patriarchy is not a evil group of men who are oppressing women. It's a cultural idea(often held by men and women ) that locks woman and men into a certain  social context  . Often to the detriment of both genders. 

Devil's advocate here. I remember reading some time back that CEOs tend to be "taller than average" and that being over six-feet-tall was commonplace among CEOs.

Anyway, isn't "patriarchy" a bit too broad of a brush to paint with? Women on average are not as tall as men. Perhaps other factors (like height) come into play that have little to do with patriarchy or traditional gender roles, but still add to the disparity between genders concerning professional pursuits.

Im with you. In fact, Rev Rye basically argued the same thing. And I agreed with him/her. But just because there are other factors involved doesnt mean this one factor (male privilege) has been ruled out or no longer partly explains what we see in this reality. The problem with MRAs and other such groups is they deny totally the existence of male privilege as a factor in todays Western society, whether explicitly or implicitly.

And its not like experiments have not shown that there is gender discrimination going on against women in such settings as academic settings for example. When asked to select between this candidate or that candidate knowing only their names and nothing else, studies showed both men and women were more likely to hire those whose names sounded male over those considered names for women.

To be clear, the type of discrimination happening isnt consciously based on some bitter and angry prejudice against women. Rather whats happening is people are more likely to trust men over women in higher status jobs and thus more likely to hire them.

(December 25, 2017 at 8:22 pm)SaStrike Wrote: Tizheruk, I don't identify as feminist nor MRA. So I try to keep an open mind about those topics. I'm seeing the point about trying to change societies thinking as a whole, but I don't see how it is possible. Maybe for future generations it can work. Like maybe in the year 3000 when everyone is pressured to be gender fluid.

But it also seems to me like the last of the patriarchy as you call it, is not going without a fight. Hence why Trump is president etc. But That's a different story. Just looking at it from an outsiders/neutral perspective. Sorry for making that conversation about the radical feminist. But I do find those interactions very entertaining and funny. It actually happened in this thread. Again apologies for being immature and finding it funny. I need to stop this patriarchy.

Youre not neutral. You basically just agreed with the feminist side here.

(December 25, 2017 at 1:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 25, 2017 at 10:22 am)Whateverist Wrote: And the saddest part about this is you not getting any Khem in your forum diet, and I definitely enjoy his posts.  Of course few can stick it to you as well as he can and I agree he seems to have something going with you.  You know his wife is a believer, right?  Maybe he is telling you all the things he can't/won't say to her?  That would kind of make you his forum wife.   

But you also have quite a following.  We all just hate to see two of our faves fight.  Like kids in a bad marriage, we're really the victims here.  

Yeah I found out recently his wife is Christian. I was thoroughly surprised considering some of the awful things he's said about me being a Christian, and how he generally treats all the Christians in this forum. Thought it was pretty interesting.

Meh, I don't fight with him anymore. I just finally put him on ignore and my experience here has been much better lol.

Ya gotta do whatcha gotta do. Be comfortable.

(December 25, 2017 at 8:22 pm)SaStrike Wrote: Tizheruk, I don't identify as feminist nor MRA. So I try to keep an open mind about those topics. I'm seeing the point about trying to change societies thinking as a whole, but I don't see how it is possible. Maybe for future generations it can work. Like maybe in the year 3000 when everyone is pressured to be gender fluid.

But it also seems to me like the last  of the patriarchy as you call it, is not going without a fight. Hence why Trump is president etc. But That's a different story. Just looking at it from an outsiders/neutral perspective. Sorry for making that conversation about the radical feminist. But I do find those interactions very entertaining and funny. It actually happened in this thread. Again apologies for being immature and finding it funny. I need to stop this patriarchy.

I am a feminist . And appreciate your insight . But i must point out that just because we can't achieve something now . Does not mean the seeds can't be sown . And some of the ails can't be  medicated . And yes it the system that hurts us all will not die in my life or possibly 4 . It just means there is a lot of work ahead . As for the humor i think it was fine no need to apologize.

---

I generally really like Khem . Especially on politics . It did not surprise me his wife's a Christian . I just imagine he's nicer to her .

---

(December 25, 2017 at 8:21 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(December 25, 2017 at 5:26 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Actually, yes, I am nitpicking. Because my argument here isnt that women cant get relatively low-status jobs like secretary or nurse. Its that they are less likely to be CEOs or surgeons. And in the example you provided earlier, even in the case of a low status job like bouncer, you wouldve still gone for men over women in most cases. You were being selective yourself by conveniently selecting between two specific members.

(December 25, 2017 at 8:07 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: 2. You confuse patriarchy with men . Patriarchy is not a evil group of men who are oppressing women. It's a cultural idea(often held by men and women ) that locks woman and men into a certain  social context  . Often to the detriment of both genders. 

Devil's advocate here. I remember reading some time back that CEOs tend to be "taller than average" and that being over six-feet-tall was commonplace among CEOs.

Anyway, isn't "patriarchy" a bit too broad of a brush to paint with? Women on average are not as tall as men. Perhaps other factors (like height) come into play that have little to do with patriarchy or traditional gender roles, but still add to the disparity between genders concerning professional pursuits.

Which ties into the notion of ideal masculine form . Tallness is often associated with masculine dominance . And shortness in men is often met with some degree of derision. And is met with some very unfortunate stereotypes .

(December 25, 2017 at 8:43 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 25, 2017 at 8:22 pm)SaStrike Wrote: Tizheruk, I don't identify as feminist nor MRA. So I try to keep an open mind about those topics. I'm seeing the point about trying to change societies thinking as a whole, but I don't see how it is possible. Maybe for future generations it can work. Like maybe in the year 3000 when everyone is pressured to be gender fluid.

But it also seems to me like the last of the patriarchy as you call it, is not going without a fight. Hence why Trump is president etc. But That's a different story. Just looking at it from an outsiders/neutral perspective. Sorry for making that conversation about the radical feminist. But I do find those interactions very entertaining and funny. It actually happened in this thread. Again apologies for being immature and finding it funny. I need to stop this patriarchy.

Youre not neutral. You basically just agreed with the feminist side here.

I meant stop it within myself. Anyone else is free to do what they want. Im not the activist type. I don't mind being a feminist though so I'll take it.

Im officially a feminist now. As long as I don't need to go protest topless and constantly tell people to check their privilege or have discussions about rape. Then I accept the title.

(December 25, 2017 at 8:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 25, 2017 at 6:23 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: This is overwhelmingly not the case . And social pressures to conform to societal standards overtly influence decisions of either sex. So pulling the" different life choices" card does not work.

When I was in high school and we were all getting counseled on choosing a career path for college, I never once felt any pressure to do anything or not do anything in particular. If I had wanted to be a surgeon, there wouldn't have been a single person trying to stop me. Much the opposite actually, I think people would have highly encouraged it.

This was definitely the case with me, growing up in the 60s-70s. I think this is a good example of social progress. I had more than one person tell me, no lie, that I should not go to college, that I was taking a seat away from a man, and that I would just end up having kids and staying home anyway, so it was a waste of time and money. I was steered toward "Secretary school" and more female-related jobs, even though it was always clear to me and everyone around me that I wanted to pursue veterinary medicine. 

Fortunately, I was aware of how ludicrous that was, but not all girls my age were.