I wasn’t aware that I was worried about whether or not you thought I was going to hell, lol.

(January 27, 2018 at 9:31 am)shadow Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 8:49 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I suppose I can give you a 50/50 shot. You are anti theist, afterall, though I haven't seen you be particularly nasty to everyone here, like that troll Whateverist. Though not a saintly gorgeous being like Succie, either.

So your idea of who goes to heaven or hell depends more on how one treats other people, and less on one's religion? I think that's a nicer outlook, but I don't know how Catholic it is.

Lol. Well first of all I was joking silly.

We are actually not supposed to judge the state of other people's souls because we can't read their minds, don't know their motivations, their life experiences, etc. All those things play a factor in a person's culpability and we simply cannot judge that because we don't know.

(January 27, 2018 at 1:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 9:31 am)shadow Wrote: So your idea of who goes to heaven or hell depends more on how one treats other people, and less on one's religion? I think that's a nicer outlook, but I don't know how Catholic it is.

Lol. Well first of all I was joking silly.

We are actually not supposed to judge the state of other people's souls because we can't read their minds, don't know their motivations, their life experiences, etc. All those things play a factor in a person's culpability and we simply cannot judge that because we don't know.

Okay, but say if you did know someone is a absolutely excellent person but not a Christian, are they hell bound? I'm genuinely curious how you think of this, because you're one of the only religious people I know who's actually willing to discuss their beliefs. Like, in your view, is being Catholic a prerequisite for not burning in hell, or can you get there through other ways? It seems to be an ideology that mandates an enormous ill-will towards other people - assuming that they are going to suffer eternally for their beliefs. Especially given all of the people throughout time, like before Christianity even existed. Or people never even exposed to your religion. How could they possibly have become Christians to earn their ticket to heaven?

And if being a Christian isn't really what matters... then why do you need this middleman of the Church to be a good person?

(January 27, 2018 at 5:17 pm)shadow Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 1:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Lol. Well first of all I was joking silly.

We are actually not supposed to judge the state of other people's souls because we can't read their minds, don't know their motivations, their life experiences, etc. All those things play a factor in a person's culpability and we simply cannot judge that because we don't know.

Okay, but say if you did know someone is a absolutely excellent person but not a Christian, are they hell bound? I'm genuinely curious how you think of this, because you're one of the only religious people I know who's actually willing to discuss their beliefs. Like, in your view, is being Catholic a prerequisite for not burning in hell, or can you get there through other ways? It seems to be an ideology that mandates an enormous ill-will towards other people - assuming that they are going to suffer eternally for their beliefs. Especially given all of the people throughout time, like before Christianity even existed. Or people never even exposed to your religion. How could they possibly have become Christians to earn their ticket to heaven?

And if being a Christian isn't really what matters... then why do you need this middleman of the Church to be a good person?

So in Catholicism, the official teaching on this is that Hell is attained through a deliberate rejection of God. 

The tricky part is deciphering whether someone has indeed "deliberately rejected God" or not. 

- If you are a person who has sought out truth and genuinely came to the conclusion that God does not exist, is that a deliberate rejection? Can you really reject something you don't think is real in the first place? 

- What about the person who believes God exists but chooses to live a life contrary to God's commandments to love others and do good? 
Has that person rejected God then, despite believing in Him? 

- What about the person who sincerely does not think God is real, but who strives to live a life of virtue, loves others, and does good? In doing so, is this person unknowingly accepting God in his/her heart by following His ways? 

Point is, a "deliberate rejection of God" is much more nuances than a simple "I believe God exists vs I do not believe God exists." Which is precisely why the Church has no authority to claim any particular person is in Hell. We know that Christopher Hitchens was atheist when he died, but we can't claim he went to Hell, because there's much more to a deliberate rejection of God than simple disbelief. We can't see into Hitchens' thoughts and motivations. We don't know his culpability. Therefore we cannot judge the state of his soul. And because the Church teaches that we should be charitable and assume the best of people's intentions when we don't know what they are, it is actually contrary to our principles to make the claim that a person is in Hell. 

Personally, in assuming the best, I very much think that a non believer who strives to live by the virtues of truth, love, and goodness, has indeed unknowingly accepted God into his heart in that way, and will certainly be in Heaven. 

None of this is to say that I take the attitude of "Oh, don't worry, you don't have to be Christian because you can still go to Heaven anyway!" The point is for people to constantly seek truth. Not to take the position of "Eh, well... If I'd go to Heaven anyway then I  don't got nothing to lose, so I'm just gonna go ahead and stay atheist and call it good!" There's a difference between reaching the atheist conclusion in a sincere quest to find truth, and just taking it because you're lazy and can't be bothered, which is kind of what I would be encouraging if I took that attitude. Does any of this make sense? 

Here's some additional info in regards to my beliefs about Hell, if you're interested: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, all atheists go to hell of their own free will and accord. (or maybe just annihilated.)

I'm already in heaven. The whole earth belongs to me.

(January 27, 2018 at 8:33 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, all atheists go to hell of their own free will and accord. (or maybe just annihilated.)

May I ask why? I mean, if someone seeks truth and it leads them to atheism, how can we really blame someone so much for not thinking God exists? To the point where they'd automatically go to Hell for It?

According to the biblical fairy tale when you croak you go to one of three places: death, the sea, or hell. All three places are temporary and everyone gets out on Judgment Day. Just because you were in hell it won't prevent you from getting into the golden cubecalled New Jerusalem. On Judgment Day you are judged according to your works. If you don't make the grade you are then tossed into the lake of fire, along with death and hell. So don't sweat it. You won't spend eternity in hell. Even Jesus went to hell and he got out after three days.

No no no...and I keep falling in this trap each time.

(January 27, 2018 at 7:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 5:17 pm)shadow Wrote: Okay, but say if you did know someone is a absolutely excellent person but not a Christian, are they hell bound? I'm genuinely curious how you think of this, because you're one of the only religious people I know who's actually willing to discuss their beliefs. Like, in your view, is being Catholic a prerequisite for not burning in hell, or can you get there through other ways? It seems to be an ideology that mandates an enormous ill-will towards other people - assuming that they are going to suffer eternally for their beliefs. Especially given all of the people throughout time, like before Christianity even existed. Or people never even exposed to your religion. How could they possibly have become Christians to earn their ticket to heaven?

And if being a Christian isn't really what matters... then why do you need this middleman of the Church to be a good person?

So in Catholicism, the official teaching on this is that Hell is attained through a deliberate rejection of God. 

The tricky part is deciphering whether someone has indeed "deliberately rejected God" or not. 

- If you are a person who has sought out truth and genuinely came to the conclusion that God does not exist, is that a deliberate rejection? Can you really reject something you don't think is real in the first place? 

- What about the person who believes God exists but chooses to live a life contrary to God's commandments to love others and do good? 
Has that person rejected God then, despite believing in Him? 

- What about the person who sincerely does not think God is real, but who strives to live a life of virtue, loves others, and does good? In doing so, is this person unknowingly accepting God in his/her heart by following His ways? 

Point is, a "deliberate rejection of God" is much more nuances than a simple "I believe God exists vs I do not believe God exists." Which is precisely why the Church has no authority to claim any particular person is in Hell. We know that Christopher Hitchens was atheist when he died, but we can't claim he went to Hell, because there's much more to a deliberate rejection of God than simple disbelief. We can't see into Hitchens' thoughts and motivations. We don't know his culpability. Therefore we cannot judge the state of his soul. And because the Church teaches that we should be charitable and assume the best of people's intentions when we don't know what they are, it is actually contrary to our principles to make the claim that a person is in Hell. 

Personally, in assuming the best, I very much think that a non believer who strives to live by the virtues of truth, love, and goodness, has indeed unknowingly accepted God into his heart in that way, and will certainly be in Heaven. 

None of this is to say that I take the attitude of "Oh, don't worry, you don't have to be Christian because you can still go to Heaven anyway!" The point is for people to constantly seek truth. Not to take the position of "Eh, well... If I'd go to Heaven anyway then I  don't got nothing to lose, so I'm just gonna go ahead and stay atheist and call it good!" There's a difference between reaching the atheist conclusion in a sincere quest to find truth, and just taking it because you're lazy and can't be bothered, which is kind of what I would be encouraging if I took that attitude. Does any of this make sense?

Yes, it makes sense, as in you are... trying to squeeze god into your conception of morality. From my point of view, nothing ties the two together. Do I deliberately reject god? Yes. Do I deliberately reject morality? Not at all. And I don't feel the slightest hint of moral inconsistency with that view.

When you use the word 'god' to refer to morality, you attach the entire institution of the Catholic Church and the Bible to your morals, which is the first sign to me that you can't really believe them. For example, the Catholic Church is rife with child sexual abuse scandals. We're talking about thousands of authority figures in the church repeatedly sexually abusing children. You can't possibly agree with this behaviour. So why pretend that an organization fostering this kind of abuse has anything to do with your morality? Why do you need that corrupt institution at all to believe in a form of karma after one dies?

You agree that one can come to morality without being Catholic. So I don't see the role of god. I think the church likes to collect money for the concept of morality, and provides nothing real in return. You say the point is a desire to "constantly seek truth"... I don't think highly educated people often land at religion from their studies. I'm a very committed student but I've never come close to believing in religion. And you said it yourself - one could be led to an atheist conclusion even through living a good, moral, and truth-seeking life. So why on earth did god make himself empirically non-existent to so many of us, with the expectation that we would not find him, if there is any truth in that belief? The much simpler explanation is that god does not exist, so one can be a very moral person without finding or seeking god.