(February 1, 2018 at 6:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But seriously. You know I love you Poca but I think you're being obtuse. 

Beautiful woman says "I love you"

Followed by "you're being obtuse"

(February 1, 2018 at 6:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Anyway, I wrote: "We have the ability to rationalize, to love, and to experience joy in a way that the other creatures do not" 

...Not to say they don't at all (I have 7 cats, I know lol), but not nearly to our extent.

Biochemically, I'd say emotions register the same way, but the rationalizing part should be different indeed... But I'd like to leave it clear that they do all those things in their own way. And some facial expressions are remarkably similar to our own, hinting at a similarity of the underlying mechanism.

(January 31, 2018 at 11:39 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 8:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Does feeling remorse for wrongdoings, acknowledging that you are not perfect, and wanting to be better, in and of itself, count as some sort of recognition of the need for redemption?

Once the need is recognized, sure, that would be a step in the right direction. A person still needs to look outside themselves for both salvation and forgiveness. As the Schoolmen said, "you cannot give what you do not have." That is why atheists cannot go to Heaven.  They have arrogated unto themselves a power they do not have - the ability to absolve sin.

This is the type of nonsensical malarkey that people dream up when they rest their worldview on a faulty metaphysic. Reification of moral behaviors into presumed existents is what leads to such malarkey, and no application of logic will free your mind of such bollocks because it is required in order to make sense of the things you believe by faith.

(February 1, 2018 at 7:56 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(February 1, 2018 at 6:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But seriously. You know I love you Poca but I think you're being obtuse. 

Beautiful woman says "I love you"

Followed by "you're being obtuse"

(February 1, 2018 at 6:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Anyway, I wrote: "We have the ability to rationalize, to love, and to experience joy in a way that the other creatures do not" 

...Not to say they don't at all (I have 7 cats, I know lol), but not nearly to our extent.

Biochemically, I'd say emotions register the same way, but the rationalizing part should be different indeed... But I'd like to leave it clear that they do all those things in their own way. And some facial expressions are remarkably similar to our own, hinting at a similarity of the underlying mechanism.

I think a lot of people underestimate the subjective experience of other creatures.  It isn't that other creatures actually have the same particular qualities which humans have, but rather that every creature has qualities which make it distinctive.  An octopus is less human than we are, we are less cephalopodian than them.  I'm not sure if we are any more speciesist than any other animal, but we may be the only one able to conceptualize such things.

My point is animals are innocent. They do not have moral free will. But that also means they don't have the same level of intelligent as we do. The 2 go together, because you need to have a certain level of intelligence to have moral awareness. Which is why I don't understand when people say that free will is a bad thing and that God (if he were real) made a mistake. I mean, they do realize if we didn't have it we would just be another species of monkey. Is that what they want? If people wanna say monkeys and other animals are just as smart as us or whatever, then I suppose they'd have no problem being just like one, but I don't think that's the case lol.

Tripling down on the same failed and vacuous assertions. It;s almost as if this "free will" and "god" shit is indefensible, and must simply be repeated.

"God"..presumably, could have made a better world with or without free will. We know this, because we both seek to do so and have accomplished as much..even with our vastly diminished agency, whatever that is. "Why don"t you go and be a monkey" is a vapid response in defense of a vapid position.

(February 1, 2018 at 8:56 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My point is animals are innocent. They do not have moral free will. But that also means they don't have the same level of intelligent as we do. The 2 go together, because you need to have a certain level of intelligence to have moral awareness. Which is why I don't understand when people say that free will is a bad thing and that God (if he were real) made a mistake. I mean, they do realize if we didn't have it we would just be another species of monkey. Is that what they want? If people wanna say monkeys and other animals are just as smart as us or whatever, then I suppose they'd have no problem being just like one, but I don't think that's the case lol.

How do you know that chimps don't have moral free will? They have a social structure that is pretty complex and each tribe has its own rules.

For that matter, are really sure that wolves don't have moral agency? Again, they are very social animals and each pack has its own rules of behavior. They are also quite intelligent.

Both seem to have the rudiments of moral agency to me.

Now, we are NOT monkeys.  We are apes. Both monkeys and apes are primates, but monkeys are different than apes. There are also differences between old world monkeys and new world monkeys, with apes more closely related to old world monkeys.

Humans are a type of ape. Apes tend to have larger brains. Humans are most closely related to Chimps and Bonobos, which are both quite intelligent and social species.

No, they are NOT just as smart as we are: they are differently intelligent. We are very good at abstract reasoning, but chimps, for example, actually have a better number sense than humans.

Lol ok dude

(February 1, 2018 at 8:58 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Tripling down on the same failed and vacuous assertions.  It;s almost as if this "free will" and "god" shit is indefensible, and must simply be repeated.

"God"..presumably, could have made a better world with or without free will.  We know this, because we both seek to do so and have accomplished as much..even with our vastly diminished agency, whatever that is.  "Why don"t you go and be a monkey" is a vapid response in defense of a vapid position.

I’d rather live a happy monkey life and then die, rather than spend an eternity in pain and agony. That one is a no brainer for me.

Wish granted. 

Some monkeys, otoh, would rather fling shit at the wall and other monkeys because they don't like being "just a monkey". These monkeys pray to the great silverback in the sky, who will beat the living shit out of you if you badtouch your lady bits, or..conversely, if you don't gargle his business night and day.....and in the right way too, the way he likes it.

Oh, come on now; poo flinging is where it’s at! 😛