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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 4:38 pm
(August 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm)salty Wrote: Lastly, your personal decision to deny Christ does absolutely nothing to stop people from suffering around the world...
And your personal decision to live in delusion that god slaughtered is own son for you does nothing to help suffering either. Only actions help people, and when it comes to ending suffering, beliefs are irrelevant.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 4:41 pm
What is the quote, two hands working over a million clasped in prayer?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 4:42 pm
(August 29, 2011 at 3:07 pm)salty Wrote: Sorry to unleash on you like that, I thought you were just using human suffering as a way to deny God.
Nope. I don't use human suffering to deny "God". Suffering can be useful. If you stick your hand into a fire you will suffer a painful burn. But you'll learn not to stick your hand into a fire. My problem is with needless and pointless suffering. For example, a child gets cancer, suffers horribly for a couple of years, and dies. Needless and pointless. There can be only four reasons a deity would allow such a thing:
1) The deity wants the child to suffer and die. This makes the deity a heartless prick.
2) The deity is powerless to stop the suffering. This means the deity is not omnipotent.
3) The deity doesn't care if the child suffers. This means the deity does not love us.
4) The deity doesn't know the child is suffering. This means the deity is not omniscient.
So which is it?
Quote:But in response to my statement: People suffering in the body is not the same as choosing to suffer in the soul.
So now we're talking about the soul "suffering"? Seems to me that you're moving the goalposts.
Quote:If you are offered Jesus Christ and deny him, it's not your body that will suffer, it's your soul. Every soul is in a condition to choose, whether the body is healthy or not. Therefore God does not want anyone to suffer, but he gives you the power to decide where you soul will go, either with him or away from him.
And if your deity is truly omniscient, won't he already know whether or not I'll accept him? Then what's the point in allowing me to choose? He already knows (before I'm born!) what my choice will be! So what's the point in creating me when he already knows what will happen?
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 5:17 pm
They're ethereal goalposts Thor, all it takes is the slightest of breezes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 5:28 pm
(August 29, 2011 at 5:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: They're ethereal goalposts Thor, all it takes is the slightest of breezes.
You sure it even takes a breeze?
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 5:29 pm
It's difficult to measure ethereal breezes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 5:30 pm
(August 29, 2011 at 4:42 pm)Thor Wrote: And if your deity is truly omniscient, won't he already know whether or not I'll accept him? Then what's the point in allowing me to choose? He already knows (before I'm born!) what my choice will be! So what's the point in creating me when he already knows what will happen?
This.
This is the big one.
Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, and omni-benevolence can NOT all exist in one being. It is a logical impossibility.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 5:32 pm
The christian concept of god was impossible before all of that, when they start describing him they're just snowballing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 5:32 pm
(August 29, 2011 at 5:30 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: This.
This is the big one.
Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, and omni-benevolence can NOT all exist in one being. It is a logical impossibility.
Yet it doesn't stop people from giving their deity all these qualities.
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: Josh McDowell
August 29, 2011 at 6:18 pm
Quote:God is the ultimate judge and his justice requires that something innocent and pure be sacrificed to atone for the sins humans commit (which echoes the coming of Christ).
Which makes no sense. God is supposedly all knowing, so surely he could of thought of a better way of going about it. I can think of a far more civilised way, one where no one gets hurt. If I had god's powers and infinite wisdom, no one would need to be harmed or sacrificed. God is incompetent.
Quote: How does it [sacrificing] make God more inclined to forgive?
It doesn't, because "god" is only a fragmentation of your over active imagination. Which is why god always seems to be on your side. He exists only in your mind, you control him. Try it. Make him angry, make him pleased. All this time, you controlled him.
Quote:By sacrificing and burning an offering to the Lord people were asking God to see them in the light of the sacrifice, as pure and innocent, meaning they acknowledged their deeds were evil and were asking to be given their innocence back. If the people sent a tainted sacrifice they are asking to be doubly cursed and mocked a holy God!
Rituals that are meaningless and worthless. Blinded by faith and incapable of reason. They've made up their own fairytales and deluded themselves into believing it.
Quote:3. God is essentially sacrificing himself, as a means to convince himself to forgive us.
He can't sacrifice himself, he has nothing to sacrifice. Besides anything that goes wrong is his fault entirely. He designed and created everything, he even knew the future with pin point accuracy. He's all knowing. So there is no excuse.
Quote:In order for humans to be redeemed we would need a pure and innocent sacrifice.
Pointless, no sacrifice was ever required. Killing people for something like a crazy unproven belief is madness. You could be terribly wrong and the life lost would have been for nothing. What makes it worse is that this one existence only ever comes once, and once dead, you cease to exist and you'll never return. It's like playing roulette, putting all your money even your life on one single number. I will not play with my existence so carelessly.
Quote:4. Moral justice demands that the criminal alone must be punished for his transgressions.
No atheist chooses to suffer. No one chooses hell (as far as I'm aware). Rejecting a crazy belief is normal and logical. It's madness to think that a god would harm you horrificly for something so trivial and harmless.
Quote:God chose to reedem us through Jesus Christ, otherwise separation from him would be our only choice, and that is a cruel fate for all the humans that descended from Adam & Eve, to only be given the choice to die.
Why would god punish those who had nothing to do with Adam and Eve?
It's like me locking you up for life for something your granddad did. Doesn't make any sense.
Quote:5. No one can take the place of someone else's sins, even if that person were willing.
Sin is just a concept, so nothing need be said.
Quote:6. It is morally wrong to accept an offer to take my place for the things I have done wrong.
It is also morally wrong to punish generations of people for something that happened thousands of years ago.
Quote:If we think over our sins, we can agree that no one deserves to pay for the evil we have committed, but us.
I haven't committed a single wrong. So how can I be punished? I have nothing to apologise for. In fact it's the other way round, it's your god that needs to apologise.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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