Salty

I really havent seen 'atacks' on you, I have seen people critcising your opinions/assertions but that is par for the course here.
All i have seen is people asking you to back up what you have said.
I am starting to think that you came here to be picked on by the 'bad atheists'.
If not why did you come?

And, once again, in my grand tradition of looking up subjects on RationalWiki, I have linked a chapter-by-chapter rebuttal of Josh McDowell's most famous book: "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/j...wder/jury/

P.S., is it just me or does it seem a little odd for a 72-year old man to still be calling himself Josh?

(August 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm)salty Wrote: I see what you mean now Ace, thank you. I agree they are easy for anyone to pull apart and you all have challenged me, which I appreciate, I needed a kick in the pants, it's just that, I really want to be friends with you guys, because I know that there's more to each of you than this kind of attitude, but how can I express my true thoughts and concerns to a bunch of raving, angry, aggressive people? I can't. I've grown so weary of the little sarcastic kickers at the end of comments, I don't even read most responses. I read Rhythm, I read Search, Sae & sometimes Minimalist, Welsh & Ace, but usually I don't get past Sae.

Making friends on it's own should be a walk in the park. It's when you fill the threads of tons of religious nonsense that will kick start a good debate. Try not to take anything personally, a good debate can highlight many things. What atheists tend to ask and not demand is that you use your head. Question everything. I have never tried to convert or de-convert anyone to atheism, I point out what I see to be faulty arguments and points. In the hope that you may see them. If there is any aggression then it could be because we have had so many theists come here talking down to us regularly. We don't get many polite and open theists. I can talk to you perfectly well as you can see. I've only challenged your beliefs, not you personally.
Some (if not most) beliefs you hold have been thoroughly debunked, so it's hard to resist to bomb the hell out of it. Habit on my part. Also some beliefs can be viewed as disgusting and in need to be challenged.

You know early histories writers had a habit of viewing the "heathens" which they encountered through the lens of their own cultures. They had no reason to even consider their own cultures. Imagine the wonder, and false attribution that has been passed down through the centuries by this quirk of early anthropology. We may criticize you for your beliefs, but only because they are a snapshot of a time we all feel that we are thoroughly passed. This is the heart of most of the criticism you'll receive. You can refer only to the bible, and many of do not believe that to be a credible source of information, nor a textbook of contemporary ethics.

In other words, if you receive criticism, avoid the tendency to quote scripture in support of scripture. Your ratings will skyrocket.

---

I could play the role of the apologist for example:

I personally have a faith in christ. Now, I have to admit that some part of me has doubts about the factual accuracy of some of the dicier narratives. For example, the idea of a global flood, all the animals on an ark. That's a stretch for me. It doesn't shake my faith in christ, but on the face of it it seems a bit far fetched. On the other hand, if we remove the fanciful, can we still draw a useful lesson from this story? Would there still be practical application of the principles espoused (if any) in the event that the narrative was completely devoid of actual miracles?

See, theres no need to post scripture unless directly challenged (say in the case of showing those principles you believe this story can establish)

(August 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm)salty Wrote: I see what you mean now Ace, thank you. I agree they are easy for anyone to pull apart and you all have challenged me, which I appreciate, I needed a kick in the pants, it's just that, I really want to be friends with you guys, because I know that there's more to each of you than this kind of attitude, but how can I express my true thoughts and concerns to a bunch of raving, angry, aggressive people? I can't. I've grown so weary of the little sarcastic kickers at the end of comments, I don't even read most responses. I read Rhythm, I read Search, Sae & sometimes Minimalist, Welsh & Ace, but usually I don't get past Sae.

Salty -

We have several theists here who staunchly defend their faith as best they see how, but some of them are friends with many members of this board because they also talk about other things. I don't make friends with theists because of their religion, but because of the person they are underneath (which I wish they'd realize they would be without the god-shit). I noticed most of your posts have to do with religious things, and I realize you're curious, but if you branch out and let us see the other facets of your personhood I guarantee it'll make things a lot easier in the friend department.

Quote:What answer would satisfy you?

There is none. I've already been where you are. I was force fed this shit as a child ( catholicism which is the same as all the others ) and when I reached the age of reason ( I was 11 ) I rejected it.

Can you understand that once you have written off fairy tales and magic there is no going back?

(August 30, 2011 at 1:32 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

(August 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm)salty Wrote: I see what you mean now Ace, thank you. I agree they are easy for anyone to pull apart and you all have challenged me, which I appreciate, I needed a kick in the pants, it's just that, I really want to be friends with you guys, because I know that there's more to each of you than this kind of attitude, but how can I express my true thoughts and concerns to a bunch of raving, angry, aggressive people? I can't. I've grown so weary of the little sarcastic kickers at the end of comments, I don't even read most responses. I read Rhythm, I read Search, Sae & sometimes Minimalist, Welsh & Ace, but usually I don't get past Sae.

Making friends on it's own should be a walk in the park. It's when you fill the threads of tons of religious nonsense that will kick start a good debate. Try not to take anything personally, a good debate can highlight many things. What atheists tend to ask and not demand is that you use your head. Question everything. I have never tried to convert or de-convert anyone to atheism, I point out what I see to be faulty arguments and points. In the hope that you may see them. If there is any aggression then it could be because we have had so many theists come here talking down to us regularly. We don't get many polite and open theists. I can talk to you perfectly well as you can see. I've only challenged your beliefs, not you personally.
Some (if not most) beliefs you hold have been thoroughly debunked, so it's hard to resist to bomb the hell out of it. Habit on my part. Also some beliefs can be viewed as disgusting and in need to be challenged.

This is the kind of response, I'm interested in. Thank you Ace, I understand what you mean because there are tons of things that I have said that cannot be proven by physical evidence, especially, if I mentioned it happened to me, you would in fact need to trust that 1. I am sane. 2. I know what I'm talking about. 3. I'm not lying to you. So it's very easy for people to argue with me. I know not to take it all too personally, I am simply asking for respect in our confrontation. If I need to get a little edgy I do.

Salty, we respect your right to believe what you want. We, however, are atheists, and we don't put the kid gloves on when discussing religion, no matter how much we like you. Don't take it personally. We sometimes get a little overzealous, because we're passionate about the subject.

(August 30, 2011 at 1:09 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Salty

I really havent seen 'atacks' on you, I have seen people critcising your opinions/assertions but that is par for the course here.
All i have seen is people asking you to back up what you have said.
I am starting to think that you came here to be picked on by the 'bad atheists'.
If not why did you come?

For the attacks, that may be because you agree with the people who are opposing me. I often see a lot of sarcastic capitalzation, and dismissal of things I hold dear, constant insults against the person of Jesus Christ is truly upsetting for a Christian, he changed me from the inside out, he placed my life on another path. For you he is a mere fantasy someone made up, but for me he is a life-line of which I could not survive without. Therefore any negative attacks on him, is an attack on me, just as any attack on your parents, on your children, or spouse is seen as an attack on you, while an attack on a friend may or may not be upsetting for you.

I am writing currently to everyone to request a more tactful approach because I know it's possible. I think of people as intelligent until they show me otherwise, and even then, I know that people are ignorant in many areas (just as I am ignorant) and if they are willing to learn I will teach! And if they are willing to teach, I will learn.

I stated earlier that I am here to answer the questions of people who are seeking answers to understand Christianity, what they decide about those answers will be up to them.

When I started this thread I expected for people to have a reaction to the quote, I'm not concerned about what people say about Josh, I don't know him personally, he seems lika a great person, but people's opinions of him do not effect me. I just expected for people to mention if they considered their lack of belief as an issue of will or an issue of want. Meaning:

This is what I expected:
"I want to, but intellectually, I can't, because I feel the claims of the Bible are false and the claims of Jesus Christ therefore are false."

OR

"I don't want to believe because I just think it's all a fantasy, it seems man-made, there are so many other religions that could be true, therefore I don't desire to be anything."

Instead I got what's on the first page and then it just went on from there. My whole thing right now is, you be you, no problem, but if you want to fair, give me what I'm giving you, if I'm giving you attitude, shoot it back, if I'm giving you respect, then shoot that back too.

All in all, I was getting edgy on the human suffering thing, so it made sense that people laid it down.

(August 30, 2011 at 2:38 pm)salty Wrote: This is the kind of response, I'm interested in. Thank you Ace, I understand what you mean because there are tons of things that I have said that cannot be proven by physical evidence, especially, if I mentioned it happened to me, you would in fact need to trust that 1. I am sane. 2. I know what I'm talking about. 3. I'm not lying to you. So it's very easy for people to argue with me. I know not to take it all too personally, I am simply asking for respect in our confrontation. If I need to get a little edgy I do.

Indeed. We do differ somewhat. Physical evidence for me is very important. I want facts, I want to see reality for what it is. No matter how pleasant or grim it may be. Evidence helps in separating fact from fiction and fantasy from reality.
When it comes to religion and the religious, many many people have claimed all sorts of things. World over people have made up gods and given them all sorts of names. From my point of view, you are just one of the many millions. I'm on the outside and trying to see if any of the millions with their beliefs make any sense or have some kind of evidence to back their beliefs up. So far, none have.
Only one religion can be right, but they can all be wrong.

I can't trust your words, just as I can't just trust anyone's words. It's all down to credibility and evidence. Can't just take someone's word for it, you're most likely wrong and I always use Occam's Razer.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Ge...occam.html
A basic scientific principle.

You can just skip and read the bolded bits.