(March 27, 2018 at 11:15 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: I think they are. It's pretty evident. Why do you disagree, Hammy? What qualifies as sentience in your book?

Having a brain developed enough to be sentient.

It's not about being intelligent... as it's at least in theory possible to have a brain developed enough for sentience but not for intelligence. But when brains develop both tend to develop.

Would you call a cow intelligent? Not to humans certainly. But I'd certainly describe ALL mammals as sentient. Mammalian brains are a lot more advanced and developed than reptilian or bird brains, or the brains of fish. I'd put octopuses as far more sentient than birds or reptiles. Their neurons are an indication of both intelligence and sentience. But intelligence and sentience are not the same thing. A human with a severe learning disability may not be intelligent, but they certainly have the neurons and the human brain required to have all the sentience of a non-mentally disabled human being. All mammals are definitely sentient, at least on some level. A mouse is perhaps less sentient than us, but not much less (and I think all primates are so close in their sentience that torturing another primate is basically equally immoral to torturing a human)... and I'd cry for the death of a pet mouse but I wouldn't for the death of a pet lizard. Even though I'd rather have a pet lizard. And I don't think a lizard (or chicken) is sentient at all.

Perhaps some birds that are more advanced are sentient. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how close to mammalian brains the birds with the most advanced brains are. But reptiles and fish definitely aren't even remotely sentient and I'd say at least 90% of birds aren't. Perhaps some of the crow family is, as they are pretty smart. And again, I don't think that intelligence makes sentience... I think it's just a good indication of a developed brain, and a developed brain is an indication of sentience. If raven and crow brains are not really any more advanced than chickens or other birds, then I think their so-called clever tricks are more the genius of natural selection, than any real intelligence or brain power. The same could perhaps be said of octopuses, but they at least have the 500 million neurons to prove their sentience.

P.S. If this convo goes on for too long it may need splitting away from the thread lol.

Can Plants Feel Pain?

Well I found this and thought the opening was rather humorous....

Quote:According to Daniel Chamovitz, dean of Life Sciences at Tel Aviv University, plants can feel themselves being eaten, they just don't have the capacity to give a shit.

It's a rather interesting article about plants.

(March 27, 2018 at 11:16 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 11:13 am)Hammy Wrote: Because I don't think chickens are sentient.

That's just a restatement of what you already wrote.

No, you responded asking why on earth I thought that they didn't feel anything. I said because I don't think they're sentient. I didn't know you knew that was the same thing so I was trying to clarify that for you. You seemed clueless about sentience so I thought I'd point out more directly that it's entirely relevant to feeling.

I don't think they're sentient because I don't think their brains are developed enough to be sentient.

Quote:I take it you're not an 'animal person'.

How do you come to that conclusion? I love all animals, even the ones that I don't believe feel anything. I love robots and I definitely don't think robots feel anything.

All mammals definitely feel things. As to octopuses and other animals with the neurons required to be sentient.

What on earth makes you think animals don't require advanced neurophysiology to feel something? Aren't you an atheist that believes that we've all evolved from microbes? Do you believe all life has sentience? Would you call grass sentient? Bacteria sentient? Viruses sentient? And if so where do you draw the line, and why? All animals are sentient? Bacteria are animals. Do you think they're sentient? Anything that is a vertebrate is sentient? What about octopuses? Why are your lines so arbitrary? Why on earth do YOU think the way you do? You sound to me like you may as well believe in souls.

No need to be such a sardonic shithead towards me when you're the pleb who is coming across as the unthinking nutjob, from my perspective. Of course actually thinking about sentience and how it relates to neurophysiological advancement in biological beings doesn't stop me from being an animal lover.

(March 27, 2018 at 12:51 pm)Joods Wrote: Can Plants Feel Pain?

Well I found this and thought the opening was rather humorous....

Quote:According to Daniel Chamovitz, dean of Life Sciences at Tel Aviv University, plants can feel themselves being eaten, they just don't have the capacity to give a shit.

It's a rather interesting article about plants.

Feeling pain and reacting to a stimulus (noxious or not) are not the same thing.

(March 27, 2018 at 12:56 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 12:51 pm)Joods Wrote: Can Plants Feel Pain?

Well I found this and thought the opening was rather humorous....


It's a rather interesting article about plants.

Feeling pain and reacting to a stimulus (noxious or not) are not the same thing.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. The venus fly trap has to "feel" the bug on it in order to react to it.

(March 27, 2018 at 12:57 pm)Joods Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 12:56 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Feeling pain and reacting to a stimulus (noxious or not) are not the same thing.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. The venus fly trap has to "feel" the bug on it in order to react to it.

That's not "pain".

(March 27, 2018 at 12:56 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Feeling pain and reacting to a stimulus (noxious or not) are not the same thing.

Thanks for pointing out my entire point

I reckon birds, fish and reptiles only do the latter. Reacting to stimuli precedes sentience evolutionary.

But back to the chicken and whether or not it can feel pain...

I'm pretty sure if you took it's wing and broke it, it would feel pain. Just because it can't use verbal language in the form of words and sentences to convey that pain, doesn't mean that it doesn't feel pain. Obviously, it will react to having its wing broken.

Cats and dogs don't speak our language. Does that mean that they are sentient beings who can't feel pain as well?
Furthermore, if they can feel pain or if one does consider them sentient, what makes them smarter than a chicken and how does one come to the conclusion that dogs and cats are smarter and can therefore feel pain that a chicken supposedly can't?

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(March 27, 2018 at 1:00 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 12:57 pm)Joods Wrote: Perhaps. Perhaps not. The venus fly trap has to "feel" the bug on it in order to react to it.

That's not "pain".

Where did I say it was?

(March 27, 2018 at 1:02 pm)Joods Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 1:00 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: That's not "pain".

Where did I say it was?

That's what this whole discussion is about lol.

(March 27, 2018 at 1:01 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 12:56 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Feeling pain and reacting to a stimulus (noxious or not) are not the same thing.

Thanks for pointing out my entire point

I reckon birds, fish and reptiles only do the latter. Reacting to stimuli precedes sentience evolutionary.

Why do you think pain is a quality of being sentient? You and I are on different pages.