http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Evolution...pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolutio...pd_sim_b_7
http://www.amazon.com/Gregor-Mendel-Fria...0810954753
http://www.amazon.com/Biology-MasteringB...0321543254
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Dummies-...0470117737
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Evolution-True...pd_sim_b_9
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Inner-Fish-Jo...pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Adaptation-Natural...0691026157
http://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Genes-Gen...0073227382
http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-...pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Triumph-...0060199067
http://www.amazon.com/Tangled-Bank-Intro...pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/Endless-Forms-Most...d_sim_b_13
http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Eart...pd_sim_b_8

You could of course just pick up a highschool biology textbook. If evolution has not been properly explained to you that is the fault of your educators, not yourself. If we're going to give WLC the credit he's due (he is after-all educated and obviously clever) then there really isn't any way to avoid the notion that he is willfully peddling bullshit, and he knows it.

He could just go and take a trip down to the British Natural History museum. Should learn lots there. Huge collection of fossils and some very old rocks. Plenty to both see and read. Which is way more than what religion can do. Religion can only tell you stories, we can show you facts, not just in books but before your very eyes.

(September 2, 2011 at 3:12 pm)salty Wrote: It's confusing to think of Adam & Eve giving birth to so many children, and incest, etc happening.

You want something confusing to think about, try to think about how Adam and Eve ever had kids in the first place. Would you sleep with a woman like this? You know there were no razors in the garden of Eden, right?

IT BURNS!!! IT FUCKING BURNS!!1!!1!!one.

(September 2, 2011 at 9:52 am)salty Wrote: The most convincing bit of proof that the Bible has established grounds for truth is the fact that the Jews are still around and still follow the books of Law.

If this is a true statement you will also have to concede that the pagan faiths of Northern Europe are true because there are still Druids practicing celebrations at the solstice. That the egyptian religion is true because there are still people who practice the cult of Osiris and read from the book of the dead. That Islam is true because there are still Muslims and even better it is the fastest growing faith. Where does this nonsense argument stop. If it really is the most convincing bit of proof, then you should consider your position as a theist immediately.

(September 2, 2011 at 9:52 am)salty Wrote: The descendents of Ishmael are still fighting with the descendents of Isaac, which is a prophesy in Genesis.

Right. And Jesus will come back and judge us all in the lifetime of his own apostles. Nearly 2000 Easters later not a freaking sign. You can make any BS claim like this and when folks examine the facts, guess what it turns out to be BS, just look at those who follow Nostradamus.

(September 2, 2011 at 9:52 am)salty Wrote: Though science has bones, tests, and theories, they have no monkeys in the process of becoming human to prove the theory is correct, and they seem to have no way of explaining why apes of all kinds have not continued to evolve into humans. Don't give me the "it takes thousands of years" excuse, because if that was the case, they should be finding things all over the places of creatures in all stages of development.

This is an ignorant and tiresome argument. Please educate yourself on biology (monkeys and apes are not the same) Evolutionary Theory, what it means to descend from a common ancestor. The reason why there are still apes, and incidentally humans are apes too, is because they evolved, like us, in an environment which shaped their evolution, from a common ancestor we both shared. The human race (sorry to disillusion you) is not the end game for evolution at all, primates in particular, and apes specifically. The reason is evolution has no end goal, it is a pitiless and remorseless process of adaptation to environment.

It is a bit like me asking if the gospel according John is true, why is there still the gospel according to Matthew? Shouldn't Matthew have been rewritten to become John? Because John is the best gospel and following it is the end goal of xtianity.

Salty you are one of those scary theists aren't you!

Quote:Well, haven't they said that the story isn't literal?

Because, Sant, they think it IS literal. That is what being a fundie means.
I realize that you probably haven't run into a lot of them in Finland...some great hockey players produced there....but probably not a lot of xtian fundies.

(September 3, 2011 at 4:53 am)aleialoura Wrote: I have 3 children whom I have raised to question everything. Their ages are 7, 4, and 3. We have had many discussions on the topic of science and evolution, and then one day the oldest asked me about the bible and the story of creation. He had heard a little about it while visiting his Christian father. I read all three of them Genesis broken down into parts, which I paused to explain it to them in a way they could understand... ya know, modern English. Anyway, when I was finished, they asked a few questions, and then my son said something very interesting:

"Whoever came up with all that had a good imagination."

My children get it. I have not indoctrinated them to believe any particular way. For as long as they can remember, I have given them some factual information and then let it sort it out for themselves. It might help to have a mother who has studied the origin of life in school to explain all of this from the very beginning, but it also helps immensely if one's mind hasn't been scrubbed of all logic to make room for faith.

If you have a scientific mind/way of thinking, the story of Adam and Eve is absurd, and it's just that simple. God let Adam name all the animals?!? Why? In what language? Did Adam magically know of all the animals that we haven't even discovered yet?

Why is it okay to assume that God made women as sort of an afterthought? even though God supposedly has a divine plan, why did he add Eve last? He's God, so didn't he KNOW that Adam would be lonely? Didn't he know that Satan would trick her? If he knew, and did nothing about it anyway, why would he punish all of mankind? What kind of God is this?

It is commendable to teach your children to question everything as many children are hammered with a religious belief early in life. Will you be angry if your children become Christians? Many people here are irritated I believe in God, it's my assumption that you may be disappointed if your children love something they can't see. Also, do you want me to answer those questions you asked? These days I've found that questions are simply asked to prove a point and mock, not because someone wants to know. This IS an atheist forum, so it makes sense. But I'm here to answer questions from a chrsitian perspective, so I'm willing to keep trying.

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(September 3, 2011 at 3:08 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

(September 2, 2011 at 9:52 am)salty Wrote: The most convincing bit of proof that the Bible has established grounds for truth is the fact that the Jews are still around and still follow the books of Law.

If this is a true statement you will also have to concede that the pagan faiths of Northern Europe are true because there are still Druids practicing celebrations at the solstice. That the egyptian religion is true because there are still people who practice the cult of Osiris and read from the book of the dead. That Islam is true because there are still Muslims and even better it is the fastest growing faith. Where does this nonsense argument stop. If it really is the most convincing bit of proof, then you should consider your position as a theist immediately.

(September 2, 2011 at 9:52 am)salty Wrote: The descendents of Ishmael are still fighting with the descendents of Isaac, which is a prophesy in Genesis.

Right. And Jesus will come back and judge us all in the lifetime of his own apostles. Nearly 2000 Easters later not a freaking sign. You can make any BS claim like this and when folks examine the facts, guess what it turns out to be BS, just look at those who follow Nostradamus.

(September 2, 2011 at 9:52 am)salty Wrote: Though science has bones, tests, and theories, they have no monkeys in the process of becoming human to prove the theory is correct, and they seem to have no way of explaining why apes of all kinds have not continued to evolve into humans. Don't give me the "it takes thousands of years" excuse, because if that was the case, they should be finding things all over the places of creatures in all stages of development.

This is an ignorant and tiresome argument. Please educate yourself on biology (monkeys and apes are not the same) Evolutionary Theory, what it means to descend from a common ancestor. The reason why there are still apes, and incidentally humans are apes too, is because they evolved, like us, in an environment which shaped their evolution, from a common ancestor we both shared. The human race (sorry to disillusion you) is not the end game for evolution at all, primates in particular, and apes specifically. The reason is evolution has no end goal, it is a pitiless and remorseless process of adaptation to environment.

It is a bit like me asking if the gospel according John is true, why is there still the gospel according to Matthew? Shouldn't Matthew have been rewritten to become John? Because John is the best gospel and following it is the end goal of xtianity.

Salty you are one of those scary theists aren't you!

Thank you for reminding me that there are things I need to work on. I'm dedicated to doing so much sometimes I do too little. What would make me scary? I feel I'm pretty normal. What would make me scary? Reading the sources people provide and loving God anyway? Then yeah, you could say I'm scary. Just as you cannot be convinced of God's presence I cannot be convinced of his absence.

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(September 3, 2011 at 1:22 pm)Strongbad Wrote:

(September 2, 2011 at 3:12 pm)salty Wrote: It's confusing to think of Adam & Eve giving birth to so many children, and incest, etc happening.

You want something confusing to think about, try to think about how Adam and Eve ever had kids in the first place. Would you sleep with a woman like this? You know there were no razors in the garden of Eden, right?

Perhaps it was the fact that she was made from his own flesh that made him so in love with her, but according to beauty today, those are some scary legs man!

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(September 3, 2011 at 10:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Evolution...pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolutio...pd_sim_b_7
http://www.amazon.com/Gregor-Mendel-Fria...0810954753
http://www.amazon.com/Biology-MasteringB...0321543254
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Dummies-...0470117737
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Evolution-True...pd_sim_b_9
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Inner-Fish-Jo...pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Adaptation-Natural...0691026157
http://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Genes-Gen...0073227382
http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Chemistry-...pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Triumph-...0060199067
http://www.amazon.com/Tangled-Bank-Intro...pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/Endless-Forms-Most...d_sim_b_13
http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Eart...pd_sim_b_8

You could of course just pick up a highschool biology textbook. If evolution has not been properly explained to you that is the fault of your educators, not yourself. If we're going to give WLC the credit he's due (he is after-all educated and obviously clever) then there really isn't any way to avoid the notion that he is willfully peddling bullshit, and he knows it.

Thanks for the links I knew you would respond to the call. When I pick up my first book I will be sure to ask you my questions. Actually, I appreciate the lack of insults from most of you, as you've had plenty of people barge in and spit nothing but jeers etc. Let's keep the pity between us at an all time low if possible, because I've received more insults on my intelligence here than I have in my life and I like to assume that I do have some positive things about me and you all have some great things about you. Again thanks for the assistance.

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(September 3, 2011 at 4:22 am)Justtristo Wrote:

(September 2, 2011 at 4:56 pm)Santewi Wrote: And then their kids had sex with each other, and their grandkids had sex with each other. Incest much?

Funny that young earth creationists admit openly that adam and eve's childern and grandchildern had sex with each other. They justify that of course by saying that humans were more genetically healther back then and that the laws prohibiting incest did not come until the days of Moses.

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(September 2, 2011 at 11:41 pm)salty Wrote: Ok. Ok. I agree that it's important to be informed. William Craig may be someone you don't like, but he's informed, so I need to stop being lazy about evolution. What are your sources? No Wikipedia, please. I prefer books or articles. Scientific talk is tough but for you guys I can push through it.

If you want to a good introduction to evolution by natural selection, read either Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne (although I have not read that) or The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins (I have read and thought it was great).

There are several things that happened in the bible that I find strange, but I feel the saving power of Christ is more important than the small parts that are different or inexplicable. Think of the history of America, it has a lot of things happening that I feel are strange and inexplicable, like Weird US (have you read that book?) Haunted places, terrorists, collectors, designers, serial killers, reality shows, lots of strange parts and yet when I look at the whole of the united states, I still feel it's the best place to live.

(September 3, 2011 at 10:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: You could of course just pick up a highschool biology textbook. If evolution has not been properly explained to you that is the fault of your educators, not yourself. If we're going to give WLC the credit he's due (he is after-all educated and obviously clever) then there really isn't any way to avoid the notion that he is willfully peddling bullshit, and he knows it.

It might not be the fault of the educators in some cases, even with good educators some students never pay attention to what is being taught to them.

salty...just how old are you??

(September 3, 2011 at 1:29 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

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(September 3, 2011 at 1:22 pm)Strongbad Wrote: You want something confusing to think about, try to think about how Adam and Eve ever had kids in the first place. Would you sleep with a woman like this? You know there were no razors in the garden of Eden, right?

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IT BURNS!!! IT FUCKING BURNS!!1!!1!!one.

I dont find it scary in the least, because before the 20th century in western societies women generally never shaved their legs or their armpits, let alone their pubic areas.