(April 24, 2018 at 9:44 am)robvalue Wrote:

(April 24, 2018 at 8:34 am)Hammy Wrote: Or there is one God that likes to fuck with people and sit with his giant God popcorn as he watches different religions kill each other lol.

Maybe God is a big troll!

Yup, that is another possibility! About the only explanation that doesn't work at all is one all-powerful, honest and caring God.

Exactly.

I mean, saying that whatever God does is good by definition... even if he thinks rape and murder and hellfire is okay... is a bit like someone pointing at a circle and saying "That's a square with four sides" and then when the other person gets confused they say "Of course, by "a square with four sides" I mean circle."

Lol.

Like... whatever God does is good by definition even if it's bad. How does that work? Lol.

The funny thing is... if morality is objective then that means there is right and wrong independent of what anyone thinks including God.

It's that dilemma isn't it?

The Euthyphro dilemma "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?".

My answer is, if it's only "moral" because God says so, even if it causes the most needless suffering ever... then that makes the word "moral" completely meaningless.

(April 23, 2018 at 7:16 pm)G Alan Wrote: Hi everyone.  First of all I want to be honest and let you know that I am a Bible believing Christian.  I did not join this forum with the intentions to attack, debate, or belittle anyone. I expect the same treatment, please.  I am doing a personal study on the topic of apostasy of the Christian faith. Some believers think that a person of Christian faith can choose to not follow Jesus.  I do have my own beliefs about this subject of which i will not discuss.  I do personally know of one person who kind of turned away for a period of time , but eventually returned to the faith.  I am here to ask if there are any of people who were a bible believing, Christ following, Christian who chose to "walk away" from that belief.  If so, how long were you a follower of Jesus and why did you abandon that faith?  What is your belief now?
Thank you so much for your time.
G.

Welcome. Like many others, I found that what's in the bible isn't congruent with reality over my experience. after first communion, that they only gave us the new testament and apocalipse, Jarring as it is, whoever wrote the apocalipse should be givin me the number of his dealer. Well, discarding that, that at 10 found cool, got thinking jesus perhaps was no magical man, perhaps a prodigy of a man with nice ideas about peace and loving. Well:

I HATE figs, yet I have 2 fig threes. I can't find myself cutting them out even when I get the job of picking their leaves on fall. Because that is what fig threes do.

(April 23, 2018 at 7:16 pm)G Alan Wrote: Hi everyone.  First of all I want to be honest and let you know that I am a Bible believing Christian.  I did not join this forum with the intentions to attack, debate, or belittle anyone. I expect the same treatment, please.  I am doing a personal study on the topic of apostasy of the Christian faith. Some believers think that a person of Christian faith can choose to not follow Jesus.  I do have my own beliefs about this subject of which i will not discuss.  I do personally know of one person who kind of turned away for a period of time , but eventually returned to the faith.  I am here to ask if there are any of people who were a bible believing, Christ following, Christian who chose to "walk away" from that belief.  If so, how long were you a follower of Jesus and why did you abandon that faith?  What is your belief now?
Thank you so much for your time.
G.

I was a sincere believer for decades.

But I was also a naturally skeptical person.

When I reached my early 30's, I realized that I never submitted my religious beliefs to the same level of critical thinking and scrutiny that I used for other religious (besides my own) and supernatural claims.

So, I went on a pretty intense study in a sincere attempt to find rational (demonstrable evidence and valid and sound logic) to justify my beliefs.

I came to realize, that my religious beliefs were just not supported by evidence, history, archeology, logic, science, etc, etc.

After giving up my unsupported religious beliefs, I remained a deist for quite a while, mostly based on the philosophical arguments for the existence of a god (Kalam cosmological argument, teleological argument, ontological argument). But then, those soon collapsed due to their being fallacious.  

One day, I just realized, I am an atheist.

My atheism is entirely a provisional position, not a dogmatic one. As long as the case theists provide to support their claim that a god exists, fails to meet its burden of proof, I will remain an atheist.

(April 23, 2018 at 7:16 pm)G Alan Wrote: Hi everyone.  First of all I want to be honest and let you know that I am a Bible believing Christian.  I did not join this forum with the intentions to attack, debate, or belittle anyone. I expect the same treatment, please.  I am doing a personal study on the topic of apostasy of the Christian faith. Some believers think that a person of Christian faith can choose to not follow Jesus.  I do have my own beliefs about this subject of which i will not discuss.  I do personally know of one person who kind of turned away for a period of time , but eventually returned to the faith.  I am here to ask if there are any of people who were a bible believing, Christ following, Christian who chose to "walk away" from that belief.  If so, how long were you a follower of Jesus and why did you abandon that faith?  What is your belief now?
Thank you so much for your time.
G.

I was born and raised as a Roman Catholic. It was a pretty laid back house, but I did have to wake up and go to church with my Dad every Sunday until I was confirmed at 18, right before I graduated from high school.

I had been known as a problem kid in my CCD classes, always asking pesky questions like, "Why are we right and the ancient Greeks wrong?" I learned to shut up but I always stayed curious.

The summer after I graduated, I attended a seance. I think a lot about how my life would have been different if I hadn't gone, but I did. I'm not getting into it, but the events of that night convinced me that Catholicism, and by extension Christianity, was hiding something, to say the least.

That sent me on a 22 year journey into the occult world. I studied everything, practiced pagan religions, read Tarot cards, and led rituals. I was a group leader in Kentucky where I lived for six years before coming back home to Michigan in 2014.

After 22 years, I realized that all the journey work, meditation, divination, and spell craft had left me with exactly one unexplainable event, that summer night after I graduated. I finally realized that it was more likely that the "unexplainable" event had an explanation that I didn't ever consider than it was that I had been visited by some mystical force that proceeded to ignore me for the next 22 years.

As I look back, I was always skeptical, even when I was knee deep in the neo-pagan world. I just needed to carry that skepticism one more step and apply it to my own life.

Did we lose our new friend already?

Not necessarily... the OP was at ~7:00 PM EST. If they're not a shit-and-runner, then they're likely working.

I just noticed they've been online so I was thinking they gave up on replying to us but maybe they just can't respond right now...

(April 24, 2018 at 3:48 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: Did we lose our new friend already?

I PMed him and he PMed me back. I then PMed him back... haven't seen him since. Hope it's not me!

I was a Christian until about 34-35. Although I got skeptical around 34. I listened to Christian music. I read the bible at least 3 times a week I pretty much abstained from anything that it's physically possible to abstain from that the Bible expects you to. Well, I may have eaten meat that wasn't properly bled, which could be bad depending on how you interpret scriptures about eating meat with the blood still in it, and others that say not to worry so much. Maybe that's a common practice anyway, and I didn't? I was pretty meek and timid for the most part. That only changed a little. You very much can change from genuinely believing to not believing.

(April 24, 2018 at 5:26 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(April 24, 2018 at 3:48 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: Did we lose our new friend already?

I PMed him and he PMed me back. I then PMed him back... haven't seen him since. Hope it's not me!

Nope, haven't lost me.  I am a farmer and do not  have "regular" work hours.  Sorry.  But, I have read all the post from people and I really do appreciate the responses.  I have taken a few jabs here from some, but thanks for the honesty.   However, family comes first in the evenings if I have had a long day.   I will stay in touch and I definitely will get to those PM questions.    
Thanks.