^ Well, do you think you were born knowing about God?

Or do you think kids learn this stuff from their parents at a young age?

(May 9, 2018 at 5:49 am)ignoramus Wrote: ^ Well, do you think you were born knowing about God?

Or do you think kids learn this stuff from their parents at a young age?

IDK. IDK how far back in our evolution that a belief in God goes so I can't really say whether it's more natural for humans to believe in a God or not. I guess it is a question of if if other animals had an advanced language system whether they would believe in God or not and I really can't answer that. This might sound foolish, but in some regards I can totally see some animals paying homage to a creator. I know I said elsewhere on this forum that animals don't have the capacity to believe in a God, but if their language systems were more robust, based on their psychology, I can't rule out that they would believe in a God.

It's natural to feel uncomfortable with uncertainty, and so to plug gaps in knowledge with made-up answers like "god did it". It doesn't make those answers any more credible. I'm perfectly comfortable just saying I don't know things. I don't know most things, in fact.

I don't know how I could base my beliefs on "not believing in god". For starters, I don't even know what "god" is. Almost every theist I talk to says something different. Usually, it doesn't make any sense to me what they're talking about. The times it does make sense, I couldn't care less whether it exists or not so my belief in it is a non-factor.

The only way I can see phrasing it is that you're not going to do things like "base your morality on god" or "serve god" or any of the other things a theist might do. But that's really a given. I don't base my morality on disbelief in the tooth fairy, ghosts, Bigfoot, magic crystals or any other nonsense either. If those things did exist, they'd be equally irrelevant to me.

One can certainly fight for the cause of equality for atheists, because they face extreme prejudice (even death) in some countries. That's not so much because of a belief in god, but as a reaction to the state of the world. Heck, reasonable theists would fight for the same thing.

But sure, if it appears to you that atheism informs some peoples' world views, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just presenting my views as an atheist. Since you're also an atheist, maybe you could reflect on whether any of it applies to you. If you'd rather not consider the labels, that's fine; but it then undermines your whole point.

Atheism is entirely a reaction to theism; people running around making ridiculous claims. It's not our fault they are doing that. We wouldn't even need the term if people stopped. But I couldn't care less if someone is a theist, like I said, as long as they don't act like a dick. The same is true for atheists. Dicks are everywhere, so many dicks will be atheists too.

(May 9, 2018 at 5:57 am)robvalue Wrote: But sure, if it appears to you that atheism informs some peoples' world views, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just presenting my views as an atheist. Since you're also an atheist, maybe you could reflect on whether any of it applies to you. If you'd rather not consider the labels, that's fine; but it then undermines your whole point.

Atheism is entirely a reaction to theism; people running around making ridiculous claims. It's not our fault they are doing that. We wouldn't even need the term if people stopped. But I couldn't care less if someone is a theist, like I said, as long as they don't act like a dick. The same is true for atheists. Dicks are everywhere, so many dicks will be atheists too.

I think that the one and only reason that I can treat atheism as a belief is because there is an opposition, which polarizes the two things. When things are polarized, one affects the other and vise versa. This is my view at least. I could say the same thing between a feeler and a thinker when it comes to MBTI or the two extremes between the top 2% in conscientiousness and the bottom 2%. They essentially split people in two.

(May 9, 2018 at 6:06 am)Quick Wrote: I think that the one and only reason that I can treat atheism as a belief is because there is an opposition, which polarizes the two things. When things are polarized, one affects the other and vise versa. This is my view at least. I could say the same thing between a feeler and a thinker when it comes to MBTI or the two extremes between the top 2% in conscientiousness and the bottom 2%. They essentially split people in two.

Sorry, late to the party here, Quick, I'm sure someone has brought up unicorns or leprechauns or something like that in the thread right? So is nonbelief in unicorns some kind of belief in-and-of-itself? Or is it simply a lack of belief in unicorns? Is not playing soccer a sport?

(May 9, 2018 at 6:16 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(May 9, 2018 at 6:06 am)Quick Wrote: I think that the one and only reason that I can treat atheism as a belief is because there is an opposition, which polarizes the two things. When things are polarized, one affects the other and vise versa. This is my view at least. I could say the same thing between a feeler and a thinker when it comes to MBTI or the two extremes between the top 2% in conscientiousness and the bottom 2%. They essentially split people in two.

Sorry, late to the party here, Quick, I'm sure someone has brought up unicorns or leprechauns or something like that in the thread right? So is nonbelief in unicorns some kind of belief in-and-of-itself? Or is it simply a lack of belief in unicorns? Is not playing soccer a sport?

I don't think belief or lack of belief in unicorns is the same sort of thing here. I think we are talking about a MAJOR difference in perspective that has affected the humans on the earth for a very long time (Israel going to war against those who don't believe the same thing for instance). When we are talking about a belief or lack of belief in something that has been so influential to humans it's not the same ball game, it's not even the same fucking sport (Pulp Fiction reference, just because I can).

(May 9, 2018 at 6:06 am)Quick Wrote:

(May 9, 2018 at 5:57 am)robvalue Wrote: But sure, if it appears to you that atheism informs some peoples' world views, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just presenting my views as an atheist. Since you're also an atheist, maybe you could reflect on whether any of it applies to you. If you'd rather not consider the labels, that's fine; but it then undermines your whole point.

Atheism is entirely a reaction to theism; people running around making ridiculous claims. It's not our fault they are doing that. We wouldn't even need the term if people stopped. But I couldn't care less if someone is a theist, like I said, as long as they don't act like a dick. The same is true for atheists. Dicks are everywhere, so many dicks will be atheists too.

I think that the one and only reason that I can treat atheism as a belief is because there is an opposition, which polarizes the two things. When things are polarized, one affects the other and vise versa. This is my view at least. I could say the same thing between a feeler and a thinker when it comes to MBTI or the two extremes between the top 2% in conscientiousness and the bottom 2%. They essentially split people in two.

Well sure, atheism is a more likely result from a critical thinker, and theism more likely from an emotional reasoner. It's more of a side effect.

Indoctrination fucks with everything of course, and even the most critical thinker can be programmed at a young age. It can be hard to break out. We witness the effects of this on the forum every day.

But just because people kill people over something, that doesn't make it a big deal, right? If one king goes to war with another king because the other king rejected his proposal that their children marry, does that make it a big deal that everyone must weigh in on or have an opinion about?

Also, there are some New Age woo woo folks who think the moon is hollow. Astrophysicists do not agree with their assessment. Science has determined that the moon is pretty much solid rock. Does that make the rest of us "solidarians"? Thinking the moon is hollow is a big deal to some of these woo folks. To me, I'm like: "Meh. There's no evidence for what you think."

(May 9, 2018 at 6:33 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: But just because people kill people over something, that doesn't make it a big deal, right? If one king goes to war with another king because the other king rejected his proposal that their children marry, does that make it a big deal that everyone must weigh in on or have an opinion about?

It's a question of scale, not principle.

Quote:Also, there are some New Age woo woo folks who think the moon is hollow. Astrophysicists do not agree with their assessment. Science has determined that the moon is pretty much solid rock. Does that make the rest of us "solidarians"? Thinking the moon is hollow is a big deal to some of these woo folks. To me, I'm like: "Meh. There's no evidence for what you think."

It was recently discovered that the moon has a magma center.

It might be a big deal if theists could agree on what a "god" even is. If that thing is an unfalsifiable being, then it's an utterly irrelevant issue.

The actions some theists take based on their belief is a big deal though.