(May 6, 2018 at 8:41 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

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(May 5, 2018 at 6:38 am)robvalue Wrote: Okay, you were directing the question to Donald Trump and such? Sure, he's a maniac and it would be great if someone sane was in charge instead.

However, the book isn't going to stop anyone doing those things, even if they read it. They may interpret it differently to you, or just ignore it. Explaining why it's a bad thing to do without referring to a specific religion would be more effective, wouldn't it?

Trump is a populist, he has lots of support in the American grounds, if you just changed the skin color and the ethnicity you'll find millions of "Multicultural clones" of him. He won the elections for a reason: his tone of speech is so common worldwide.

My goal is not for him to stop; or for anybody to stop. But exposing what is wrong and testifying against what is bad are things that matter a lot to me. I truly believe that earth will be earth, Trump is just a drop in a sea; that's why a book that exposes his likes and advising and warning from becoming like him is essential.

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(May 5, 2018 at 7:00 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I watched Arclight raid back in the day. You should take a look.

I can bet that these B52s dropped the bombs on masses of villagers.
Thankfully Nukes were never used.

Did you fight against the NVA ?

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(May 5, 2018 at 7:04 am)Chad32 Wrote: That's a nice passage. I wish more muslims would follow the nicer passages, but like christians, many find more meaning in the hateful and violent passages. Like the bible, you can find a verse to support pretty much any belief you have.

Books should be taken as a whole block: you don't get to cherry pick if it's a book from God.
If two verses contradict each other, then the book is not valid.

The Quran never contradicts each other. Rather; for criminals and invaders there's a sentence; for normal people there is another sentence.

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(May 5, 2018 at 7:12 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: 1) Note to whom this verse is directed. "We ordained to the Children of Israel ...". This verse has nothing to do with proving Islam is a peaceful religion. The target audience is not Muslims, it is Jews. Jews are being addressed here, the Children of Israel. And why is Allah using the term "we" if he is absolutely singular?

I discussed this point in the "hidden part" in my topic:

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Quote:

Quote:AtlasS said:

Quote:Just as a side note; Muslims are obligated to follow the authentic Torah and Bible verses:

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What was written on Jews is written on us unless the Quran said otherwise. Since we know that their book is quite forged by now; it is not legitimate to follow in my opinion and the opinion of most Muslims. If the Quran said that something is true in the Torah, then I must follow that true section from the Torah.

Quote:2) What does it mean to "spread mischief in the land?" After all, that seems to be an exception for which killing someone is justified by this verse. If Muslims want to ignore point 1 above and personalize this verse for the Muslim community, as they do frequently, we must understand what it means to spread mischief. This is important because "spreading mischief" is justified as means to kill someone who is engaged in "spreading mischief."

Looking at the context of the verse, "spread mischief in the land" would mean:







So now it makes sense..So killing for no reason is the mischief, something so similar to what hateful, sick people do. That's the mischief,
God says in verse 32: "because of that...", so he is pinpointing the mischief that would require what we see in verse 33.
Honestly, if non-Muslims treated serial killers and gangsters like this, won't we have a safer earth?

Quote:Ibn Kathir is an authoritative scholar and exegete of the Quran. Although he does not develop the term "make mischief" here, he does so in other similar verses. Sura 2:11-12 uses the same term, and Ibn Kathir defines what it means to "make mischief." Speaking of hypocrites and other disbelievers of Islam, Sura 2:11-12 says, "When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!" Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not."

In his commentary on these verses, Ibn Kathir says, "Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. The hypocrites commit mischief on earth by disobeying their Lord on it and continuing in the prohibited acts. They also abandon what Allah made obligatory and doubt His religion, even though He does not accept a deed from anyone except with faith in His religion and certainty of its truth." In other words, to disobey Allah is to spread mischief. Anyone who does not pray five daily prayers, fast during Ramadan, obey Muhammad as Allah's messenger, believe in absolute Islamic monotheism, is spreading mischief.

Spreading mischief in the land is an exception to the prohibition to kill in Sura 5:32. Thus, Sura 5:32 allows the murder of those who spread mischief in the land - those who disbelieve in Allah and his messenger. This verse is not about peace at all.

What does Sura 5:32 really mean?

Did they kill somebody?
I won't call the murder "mischief" until a family member kill their own without a reason like the story above. Also; what serial killers and gangsters do.

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(May 5, 2018 at 8:22 am)robvalue Wrote: I have no idea what is the point of all this "Islam is moral" stuff. Are we supposed to all convert to Islam so that the world would be peaceful? Somehow I don't think that's the answer.

No; rob.

Just trying my hand against Islamophobia.
Islam doesn't call to the blowing up of civilians.

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(May 5, 2018 at 8:41 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: He's trying to make Islam look better. This is necessary because he's deeply embarrassed with the way things are going right now, but he doesn't have the means or the will to try to change things. Thus the slapped on coat of paint.

No he's not.
He -me- is defending his values and faith of choice. BTW I don't get embarrassed easily. And looking at WW2 and stuff like it, it's not me who should be embarrassed, really.

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(May 5, 2018 at 8:42 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The larger issue, I think, is the hopelessly blinkered outlook that religious people almost always have regarding their own faith. It is a rare Muslim or Christian or Jew who will come right out and say, 'My holy book instructs me to slay the innocent on behalf of my loving god.'  The advantage atheists hold in this regard is that we're on the outside looking in. We can see these 'sacred' writings for what they truly are -  barbaric, savage manuals written by barbaric savages that do support, condone and instruct their followers to butcher the innocent for the crime of being different.

Boru

The same words that Rome used before invading the Germanic tribes.
Butchering the masses took place at the hands of secular regimes; not theistic.

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Quote:Just as a side note; Muslims are obligated to follow the authentic Torah and Bible verses:

(May 14, 2018 at 12:15 am)yragnitup Wrote: Mother’s Deadly Day: She Blew Up Herself and Her Two Girls to Murder Infidels.
The deadly attacks during Sunday services in Indonesia were the work of a whole family.

Mother’s Deadly Day: She Blew Up Herself and Her Two Girls to Murder Christians

(May 15, 2018 at 10:03 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: According to the Islamic fairy tale they did a good thing because now each one will be able to intercede on behalf of 70 buddies on Judgment Day to get them into paradise.  And since religious people want to go to heaven or to paradise it's a good ROI.

(May 15, 2018 at 10:57 pm)yragnitup Wrote:

(May 15, 2018 at 10:03 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: According to the Islamic fairy tale they did a good thing because now each one will be able to intercede on behalf of 70 buddies on Judgment Day to get them into paradise.  And since religious people want to go to heaven or to paradise it's a good ROI.

Yup. Paradise!!!

Allah's reward in heaven for believer's : big breasted virgins, pearly boys, fruit, honey, milk, wine, ginger ale, clean water, gold bracelet, fine Persian silk (istabraq), mansion, couch, chicken meat & fine weather. (note: Istabraq is a luxury good of the 7th century from Iran, its like Allah promising me Gucci today)

Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity (Quran 9 72)

For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk ( transliteration: istabraq) and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! (Qur'an 18:31)

(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? (Qur'an 47:15)

Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 52:24)

In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- (Qur'an 55:56)

And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Quran 78 33)

(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: (21)And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 56:15-23)

And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. (13)Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal,- Crystal-clear, made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes). And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil (ginger),- A fountain there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (Qur'an 76:12-19)

(May 16, 2018 at 4:45 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 15, 2018 at 10:57 pm)yragnitup Wrote:
Yup. Paradise!!!

Allah's reward in heaven for believer's : big breasted virgins, pearly boys, fruit, honey, milk, wine, ginger ale, clean water, gold bracelet, fine Persian silk (istabraq), mansion, couch, chicken meat & fine weather. (note: Istabraq is a luxury good of the 7th century from Iran, its like Allah promising me Gucci today)

Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity (Quran 9 72)

For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk ( transliteration: istabraq) and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! (Qur'an 18:31)

(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? (Qur'an 47:15)

Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 52:24)

In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- (Qur'an 55:56)

And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Quran 78 33)

(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: (21)And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 56:15-23)

And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. (13)Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal,- Crystal-clear, made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes). And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil (ginger),- A fountain there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (Qur'an 76:12-19)

If you read that BS with a clear mind you see that paradise is just for the guys.  The boys and women get screwed.  If the guys get maidens whom no one has touched they are either freshly created or babies.  According to the fairy tale most of the real women will be in hell.  In that regard it's sort of like the golden cube in the Bible.  The Bible doesn't say one word about women having equal rights in the golden cube.  They have an undefined role.

Quote:Sura 3, The Quran:
( 195 )   And their Lord responded to them, "Never will I allow to be lost the work of [any] worker among you, whether male or female; you are of one another. So those who emigrated or were evicted from their homes or were harmed in My cause or fought or were killed - I will surely remove from them their misdeeds, and I will surely admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow as reward from Allah, and Allah has with Him the best reward."

Quote:Sura 66, The Quran:
( 11 )   And Allah presents an example of those who believed: the wife of Pharaoh, when she said, "My Lord, build for me near You a house in Paradise and save me from Pharaoh and his deeds and save me from the wrongdoing people."

( 12 )   And [the example of] Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew into [her garment] through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient.