(May 16, 2018 at 11:02 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: The comparison lies in the fact that I see fetuses and acorns as being potential humans and trees, but not yet actual trees. And as someone who's grown a few avocado trees from seeds, I'd say it truly becomes an actual plant when the seed finally germinates, and I'd say a fetus becomes an actual human either at birth, or if I'm feeling generous, around the same time its brain develops the ability to sense, which tends to be somewhere around the beginning of the third trimester. After all, brain death is generally counted as when life ends, so why not count when it starts functioning as the start of life?

By around twenty weeks gestation, a human fetus can taste, dream, hear its mother’s voice, experience comfort and distress, and possibly (though it’s disputed) feel pain.  Just because a living thing isn’t fully conscious doesn’t mean there is no moral discussion to be had here.  Most emotionally well-adjusted folk wouldn’t think it right to stomp out their hamster when they’ve grown tired of it.  Maybe we can give an experiential human fetus at least as much consideration as we would give a hamster.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:02 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: The comparison lies in the fact that I see fetuses and acorns as being potential humans and trees, but not yet actual trees. And as someone who's grown a few avocado trees from seeds, I'd say it truly becomes an actual plant when the seed finally germinates, and I'd say a fetus becomes an actual human either at birth, or if I'm feeling generous, around the same time its brain develops the ability to sense, which tends to be somewhere around the beginning of the third trimester. After all, brain death is generally counted as when life ends, so why not count when it starts functioning as the start of life?

By around twenty weeks gestation, a human fetus can taste, dream, hear its mother’s voice, experience comfort and distress, and possibly (though it’s disputed) feel pain.  Just because a living thing isn’t fully conscious doesn’t mean there is no moral discussion to be had here.  Most emotionally well-adjusted folk wouldn’t think it right to stomp out their hamster when they’ve grown tired of it.  Maybe we can give an experiential human fetus at least as much consideration as we would give a hamster.

Is the hamster living inside the owner .And no ones killing it because there tired of it that's a strawman.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:34 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: By around twenty weeks gestation, a human fetus can taste, dream, hear its mother’s voice, experience comfort and distress, and possibly (though it’s disputed) feel pain.  Just because a living thing isn’t fully conscious doesn’t mean there is no moral discussion to be had here.  Most emotionally well-adjusted folk wouldn’t think it right to stomp out their hamster when they’ve grown tired of it.  Maybe we can give an experiential human fetus at least as much consideration as we would give a hamster.

Is the hamster living inside the owner .

Yeah, if we could somehow evict the fetus and move it to another womb, either an artificial one or implanted in the womb of a childless woman who wanted one, things would be different and I'd be supporting this. I'd probably be a little less than enthused about the increase in the surplus population, but this would actually be a good solution to this issue. From my understanding, most on-demand abortions aren't motivated by wanting the fetus dead, but by wanting it gone and out of her, and killing it just happens to be the only way to do it without waiting several months for it to be born. However, such a solution is, at best, likely several decades from being a viable option, and at worst, biologically impossible. And thus, if the options are A) force a woman to carry an being inside her that she does not want inside her, or B) give her the option of killing it, it's not hard to see why I'd choose to give her the option.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:40 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:34 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Is the hamster living inside the owner .

Yeah, if we could somehow evict the fetus and move it to another womb, either an artificial one or implanted in the womb of a childless woman who wanted one, things would be different and I'd be supporting this. I'd probably be a little less than enthused about the increase in the surplus population, but this would actually be a good solution to this issue. However, such a solution is, at best, likely several decades from being a viable option, and at worst, biologically impossible. And thus, if the options are A) force a woman to carry an being inside her that she does not want inside her, or B) give her the option of killing it, it's not hard to see why I'd choose to give her the option.

Here Here

(May 15, 2018 at 1:39 am)Cecelia Wrote: The anti-choice movement is dumb, explained easily:

Either you think that there should be an exception for rape (because forcing a 13 year old girl who's been raped to carry a baby inside of her for 40 weeks is absolutely awful) in which case you're perfectly okay with letting a 'life' die because of the action of it's father.

OR

You think there should NOT be an exception for rape, and have no concern for the 13 year old rape victim.  Which means you don't really care about life so much as you do forcing birth, and are trying to be consistent.

Fuck knows what the pro-lifers think of someone who is anti-birth like myself.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:34 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: By around twenty weeks gestation, a human fetus can taste, dream, hear its mother’s voice, experience comfort and distress, and possibly (though it’s disputed) feel pain.  Just because a living thing isn’t fully conscious doesn’t mean there is no moral discussion to be had here.  Most emotionally well-adjusted folk wouldn’t think it right to stomp out their hamster when they’ve grown tired of it.  Maybe we can give an experiential human fetus at least as much consideration as we would give a hamster.

Is the hamster living inside the owner .And no ones killing it because there tired of it that's a strawman.

It’s not a strawman, because I am not fostering a pro-life argument.  I am ultimately pro-choice.  We have to preserve bodily autonomy first and foremost.  Forcing women to have babies is the wrong side of progress.  But, I do think that there is a meaningful and ontological difference between a zygote and a six month old fetus, and for me, this presents as a true moral dilemma with regard to abortion.  I also find it morally repugnant when people talk about living human fetuses like they’re inanimate objects undeserving of even a moment of consideration.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:25 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:02 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: The comparison lies in the fact that I see fetuses and acorns as being potential humans and trees, but not yet actual trees. And as someone who's grown a few avocado trees from seeds, I'd say it truly becomes an actual plant when the seed finally germinates, and I'd say a fetus becomes an actual human either at birth, or if I'm feeling generous, around the same time its brain develops the ability to sense, which tends to be somewhere around the beginning of the third trimester. After all, brain death is generally counted as when life ends, so why not count when it starts functioning as the start of life?

By around twenty weeks gestation, a human fetus can taste, dream, hear its mother’s voice, experience comfort and distress, and possibly (though it’s disputed) feel pain.  Just because a living thing isn’t fully conscious doesn’t mean there is no moral discussion to be had here.  Most emotionally well-adjusted folk wouldn’t think it right to stomp out their hamster when they’ve grown tired of it.  Maybe we can give an experiential human fetus at least as much consideration as we would give a hamster.

Whilst I agree that more advanced fetuses can feel pain I don't think the fetus would suffer as much trauma as an adult human who is forced to give birth against its will would.

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(May 17, 2018 at 8:43 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:34 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Is the hamster living inside the owner .And no ones killing it because there tired of it that's a strawman.

It’s not a strawman, because I am not fostering a pro-life argument.  I am ultimately pro-choice.  We have to preserve bodily autonomy first and foremost.  Forcing women to have babies is on the wrong side of moral progress.  But, I do think that there is a meaningful and ontological difference between a zygote and a six month old fetus, and for me, this presents as a true moral dilemma with regard to abortion.  I also find it morally repugnant when people talk about living human fetuses like they’re inanimate objects undeserving of even a moment of consideration.

Agreed. It's all just a matter of degree.