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Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 7:35 am
Quote: Whatever else may be wrong with our world, it remains a fact that some of the most terrifying instances of human conflict and stupidity would be unthinkable without religion. And the other ideologies that inspire people to behave like monsters—Stalinism, fascism, etc.—are dangerous precisely because they so resemble religions. Sacrifice for the Dear Leader, however secular, is an act of cultic conformity and worship. Whenever human obsession is channeled in these ways, we can see the ancient framework upon which every religion was built. In our ignorance, fear, and craving for order, we created the gods. And ignorance, fear, and craving keep them with us.
LINK
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 7:51 am
(September 10, 2011 at 7:35 am)little_monkey Wrote: Quote: Whatever else may be wrong with our world, it remains a fact that some of the most terrifying instances of human conflict and stupidity would be unthinkable without religion. And the other ideologies that inspire people to behave like monsters—Stalinism, fascism, etc.—are dangerous precisely because they so resemble religions. Sacrifice for the Dear Leader, however secular, is an act of cultic conformity and worship. Whenever human obsession is channeled in these ways, we can see the ancient framework upon which every religion was built. In our ignorance, fear, and craving for order, we created the gods. And ignorance, fear, and craving keep them with us.
LINK
Its interesting to observe that all ideologies that consider themselves to be correct can justify their behavior. Sam Harris doesn't mention the rampant materialism seeking to impose its world view on other cultures as in any way responsible for the troubles and conflict we see today. Materialsim is not a neutral viewpoint, just as any other philosophical worldview is not neutral. We may disagree with other peoples views it does not give us the right to impose our views on other cultures.
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 8:50 am
(September 10, 2011 at 7:51 am)StatCrux Wrote: (September 10, 2011 at 7:35 am)little_monkey Wrote: Quote: Whatever else may be wrong with our world, it remains a fact that some of the most terrifying instances of human conflict and stupidity would be unthinkable without religion. And the other ideologies that inspire people to behave like monsters—Stalinism, fascism, etc.—are dangerous precisely because they so resemble religions. Sacrifice for the Dear Leader, however secular, is an act of cultic conformity and worship. Whenever human obsession is channeled in these ways, we can see the ancient framework upon which every religion was built. In our ignorance, fear, and craving for order, we created the gods. And ignorance, fear, and craving keep them with us.
LINK
Its interesting to observe that all ideologies that consider themselves to be correct can justify their behavior. Sam Harris doesn't mention the rampant materialism seeking to impose its world view on other cultures as in any way responsible for the troubles and conflict we see today. Materialsim is not a neutral viewpoint, just as any other philosophical worldview is not neutral. We may disagree with other peoples views it does not give us the right to impose our views on other cultures.
Harris is adressing the point that blind devotion to any god, religious or secular (read: the State) is dangerous. I failed to see how materialism fits in there, it's a point of view but hardly a counterpoint to Harris' point.
Secondly, the word "materialism" needs a qualifier. Do you mean metaphysical materialism or epistemological materialism? This would require another thread to explore that.
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 9:13 am
(September 10, 2011 at 8:50 am)little_monkey Wrote: Harris is adressing the point that blind devotion to any god, religious or secular (read: the State) is dangerous.
My issue would be with the use of the term "God". Harris and others of his ilk seem to be under the impression that people who choose to believe aheist/materialist ideologies are immune from the very thing he is talking about. I have no problem in recognising the appalling crimes against humanity that Harris mentions, but these can be perpetrated by people of all ideologies, including atheism. Perhaps if atheists were to turn their attentions on to the emerging "new atheism" with unbiased, clear critical thinking they would recognise the familiar traits of blind faith in a given ideology that they happily point out in others...
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 9:33 am
(September 10, 2011 at 9:13 am)StatCrux Wrote: but these can be perpetrated by people of all ideologies, including atheism.
I don't see any logical step that could lead an atheist to do such things as a result of his/her atheism.
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 10:23 am
(This post was last modified: September 10, 2011 at 10:25 am by little_monkey.)
(September 10, 2011 at 9:13 am)StatCrux Wrote: (September 10, 2011 at 8:50 am)little_monkey Wrote: Harris is adressing the point that blind devotion to any god, religious or secular (read: the State) is dangerous.
My issue would be with the use of the term "God". Harris and others of his ilk seem to be under the impression that people who choose to believe aheist/materialist ideologies are immune from the very thing he is talking about. I have no problem in recognising the appalling crimes against humanity that Harris mentions, but these can be perpetrated by people of all ideologies, including atheism. Perhaps if atheists were to turn their attentions on to the emerging "new atheism" with unbiased, clear critical thinking they would recognise the familiar traits of blind faith in a given ideology that they happily point out in others...
What is ironic is that you are labelling atheism as an ideology, when in reality, a more appropriate designation would be a lack of ideology.The so-called "new atheism" has everything to do with coming out of the closet rather than being a new "ideology" of atheism. Perhaps you should be wary of the talking points used by the extremists who demonize anyone that disagrees with them. About the only fault one could make of atheists is their persistent nagging scepticism of anything that proponents of a certain ideology insist is their "true" holy grail.
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 10:48 am
(This post was last modified: September 10, 2011 at 12:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 10, 2011 at 7:51 am)StatCrux Wrote: Its interesting to observe that all ideologies that consider themselves to be correct can justify their behavior. Sam Harris doesn't mention the rampant materialism seeking to impose its world view on other cultures as in any way responsible for the troubles and conflict we see today. Materialsim is not a neutral viewpoint, just as any other philosophical worldview is not neutral. We may disagree with other peoples views it does not give us the right to impose our views on other cultures.
Oh of course not, thankfully for you god will take care of that right? Lakes of fire await all those who disagree. You get to sit back while god does the wetwork. Way to wash your hands and claim the moral high ground 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 10:53 am
(September 10, 2011 at 7:51 am)StatCrux Wrote: Its interesting to observe that all ideologies that consider themselves to be correct can justify their behavior. Sam Harris doesn't mention the rampant materialism seeking to impose its world view on other cultures as in any way responsible for the troubles and conflict we see today. Materialsim is not a neutral viewpoint, just as any other philosophical worldview is not neutral. We may disagree with other peoples views it does not give us the right to impose our views on other cultures.
Too late...
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 11:36 am
(September 10, 2011 at 9:13 am)StatCrux Wrote: (September 10, 2011 at 8:50 am)little_monkey Wrote: Harris is adressing the point that blind devotion to any god, religious or secular (read: the State) is dangerous.
My issue would be with the use of the term "God". Harris and others of his ilk seem to be under the impression that people who choose to believe aheist/materialist ideologies are immune from the very thing he is talking about. I have no problem in recognising the appalling crimes against humanity that Harris mentions, but these can be perpetrated by people of all ideologies, including atheism. Perhaps if atheists were to turn their attentions on to the emerging "new atheism" with unbiased, clear critical thinking they would recognise the familiar traits of blind faith in a given ideology that they happily point out in others...
I mistrust the intent of those who add " new " to any tenet.
It invariably means betrayal of the original.
 A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: Sam Harris on 9/11
September 10, 2011 at 12:24 pm
Quote:that people who choose to believe aheist/materialist ideologies are immune from the very thing he is talking about.
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