(September 13, 2011 at 8:02 pm)Fred Wrote: I can see how that may be for climate change, but I'm pretty sure gays certainly do threaten their core issues. Why do you think it's different with atheists?

Nope, being gay doesn't even break the ten commandments. Being an atheist does.

What core issues does being gay threaten? Being gay is but a single (supposed) sin. Christians think all people are sinners. Christians who have a problem with gay people don't have that problem because of god, they have it because they are bigots. Christians who truly try to love their fellow man, don't hate gay people. They feel bad for them. As for atheists, we challenge everything, literally everything, that they believe. As for climate change, that really is not a Christian issue. It's an idiot issue. (Take it away, Min. )

Mass paranoid schizophrenia? Idk. I face it every day. I wear my necklace proudly, despite the evil looks and endless harassment.

Today someone asked me how I could just not believe in God. I asked him why he doesn't believe in unicorns, and kept steppin'.

(September 13, 2011 at 8:05 pm)Cinjin Wrote: It's not just the realization that their core belief system might be bogus. They realize that their father and their father's father on back wasted their lives worshiping a deity that doesn't exist. Not only does it mean you've wasted countless years on stupidity, but you've sacrificed a wonderful life for NOTHING!

Nobody wants to face that kind of reality. Atheists (and the like minded) are singled out because if Christians ever become the minority they face the very real possibility of total humiliation and a complete loss of control.

Imagine how the last group felt who still believed in Zeus, Apollo, and Neptune. The fear of a dying religion has got to be a powerful thing. They hate you because they fear you.

Let's say all you say is true. If all that is what they fear, Islam would be the main object because they present far greater danger in the way of numbers and the terrorist angle. That's more scary than flying teapots or whatever you guys can throw at them, but Moslems were a distant second on the this question: This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society... Atheist: 39.6% Muslims: 26.3%, so it seems like the power angle would swing their way, especially with the Sharia law scare and the "they hate us for our freedom" line.

Quote:Well, sure, but they fear lots of others who have rejected their bullshit story in more directly threatening ways.

Look at it from the point of view of a soldier. When he fights another soldier in uniform there is a degree of respect. But when that same soldier is shot at by a civilian the civilian is a terrorist to be shot on sight....along with his whole family if necessary or possible. (Before someone whines about that analogy remember that we invented the term "collateral damage.")

It's similar. A xtian can hate a towel-head because he believes in a different invisible man in the sky. But that is not as bad as someone who tells both of them that they are out of their fucking minds for believing in invisible sky-daddies in the first place.

(September 13, 2011 at 8:20 pm)Fred Wrote: Let's say all you say is true. If all that is what they fear, Islam would be the main object because they present far greater danger in the way of numbers and the terrorist angle. That's more scary than flying teapots or whatever you guys can throw at them, but Moslems were a distant second on the this question: This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society... Atheist: 39.6% Muslims: 26.3%, so it seems like the power angle would swing their way, especially with the Sharia law scare and the "they hate us for our freedom" line.

Because Christians are not afraid that another superstitious faith based belief system will replace their superstitious faith based belief system. [Edit: by this I mean replace their belief system in their own mind, not worldwide]

They are afraid that it can be shown that ALL superstitious faith based belief systems are bogus, including their own.

That's what is meant by atheism is a threat to their beliefs.

I think it goes further than just a fear issue. We are seen as hopeless and empty beings void of morals. We are seen as idiots who can't see the obvious evidence of God's wisdom and beauty all around us. Most of all, we are seen as people who hold nothing sacred and can't justify being good people.

People are also under the impression that a person cannot be good without god, so not to despise us would be admitting that is a false concept.

The main problem with religion at this point in our evolutionary thought is not the conflict between theist and nontheist as to whether a god exists or not...it is whether the rational will continue to allow the irrational to dictate the course of progress. This is the ultimate end. There have been many points in history where this is easily clarified. There are of course recent events which make this glaringly obvious. Being politically correct is a detrement, toleration of any world view that seeks to harm others, suppress any form of rational thought, subjugate our species to nothing more than puppetry for the whims of unproven deities is ultimate genocide.

[quote][quote='Faith No More' pid='178730' dateline='1315975224']
I think it goes further than just a fear issue. We are seen as hopeless and empty beings void of morals. We are seen as idiots who can't see the obvious evidence of God's wisdom and beauty all around us. Most of all, we are seen as people who hold nothing sacred and can't justify being good people. People are also under the impression that a person cannot be good without god, so not to despise us would be admitting that is a false concept.
[/quote]

You bring up great points, FNM, and I agree that it goes beyond just fear, though fear is a big part of it.

I think the biggest issue is highlighted by the way you express it in when you say "we are seen as." When you compare the way you see things, knowing that being an atheist is not a prerequisite for the negatives nor a barrier to the positives you list (and I fully agree with you on that score), it's clear that there's a large gap between your reality and how that reality is perceived by those who are soaking in another reality.

A lot of Theists just cannot understand what atheism is.
We see this time and again here.
Theists say something to the effect "you dont believe in god, so what do you believe in?" when we answer "just not in god", it blows their minds, in their world you HAVE to believe in something, even if its not what they believe. But to not believe.....Just does not compute with them for some reason.
Hence the fear.

(September 14, 2011 at 12:46 am)ArmchairAtheist Wrote: The main problem with religion at this point in our evolutionary thought is not the conflict between theist and nontheist as to whether a god exists or not...it is whether the rational will continue to allow the irrational to dictate the course of progress.

I think you hit it on the head here. It's deeper and far more pervasive than the existence of God question, at least as it plays out on the social terrain. Rational vs. non-rational is a major issue.

Quote:This is the ultimate end. There have been many points in history where this is easily clarified. There are of course recent events which make this glaringly obvious.

Can you list a few? I'd love to see what specifics you would point to because here's where I think it gets complicated.

Quote:Being politically correct is a detrement, toleration of any world view that seeks to harm others, suppress any form of rational thought, subjugate our species to nothing more than puppetry for the whims of unproven deities is ultimate genocide.

Your statement here has two different targets, the PC wing and the subjugation wing. If you can be said to represent the rational thought wing, and the fundies can be said to represent the irrational wing, where does the PC wing fit in? Are saying that it isn't a rational? Ok, but if it isn't, is it a different kind of irrationality? After all, if the fundie folk are seeking to subjugate and the PC folks are seeking to tolerate, that's two different brands right there, each coming from a different direction. What do you think that's about?

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(September 14, 2011 at 1:56 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: A lot of Theists just cannot understand what atheism is.
We see this time and again here.

Heh. That "bald is not a hair color" bit just doesn't seem to be getting the job done, huh?

Quote:Theists say something to the effect "you dont believe in god, so what do you believe in?" when we answer "just not in god", it blows their minds,

I don't agree. They are perfectly capable of understanding that you don't believe in their God. The mind-blowing, or at least confusion, seems to come in the next step.

Quote:in their world you HAVE to believe in something, even if its not what they believe. But to not believe.....Just does not compute with them for some reason. Hence the fear.

To not believe in one thing is fine, but to posit the idea of not believing anything doesn't compute, because everybody believes in something. They believe in a world where deity is included, and you believe in a world where deity is not included.

To put it in the terms of that famous saw, they believe in a hairy world while yours is bald. They have no trouble understanding (even if they disagree) that you don't believe in hair, but to assert that you don't believe in bald, well, that doesn't compute and yet, that's what it so often sounds like what you are saying from their hairy pov.