(August 11, 2018 at 2:31 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(August 11, 2018 at 10:31 am)Kit Wrote: Not at your own personal reality, naturally.

Reality is objective  There isn’t one for me, and another for you.

If reality is so objective, why is yours of god's existence more subjective?

(August 11, 2018 at 2:32 pm)Kit Wrote:

(August 11, 2018 at 2:31 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Reality is objective  There isn’t one for me, and another for you.

If reality is so objective, why is yours of god's existence more subjective?

I think that we are using objective/ subjective in two different ways.

Quote:Reality is objective  There isn’t one for me, and another for you.

Yes reality is objective .Too bad your not living there .

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Quote:I think that we are using objective/ subjective in two different ways.

Yes Kits using it the right way

(August 11, 2018 at 2:34 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(August 11, 2018 at 2:32 pm)Kit Wrote: If reality is so objective, why is yours of god's existence more subjective?

I think that we are using objective/ subjective in two different ways.

No.

There's only the one meaning.

Subjectively, theists believe in God.

Objectively, atheists require evidence for god's existence.

I'd say reality is reality. You directly perceive reality through subjective experience. From your subjective experience, you can infer an objective reality. Objective reality being "more real" than subjective reality is a matter for philosophical debate.

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I don't consider theism a "subjective belief"... theism is either true or it isn't.

If God exists, he exists objectively. Plain and simple.

The problem with theism is that it's wrong... not that it's "overly subjective."

Goodness and morality in Atheistic paradigm has to be subjective and ungrounded and created through relatively chaotic means.  If it is so, everything we assume about it is baseless, and it's a delusion.  

It works in a Theistic paradigm. But the problem with most Theists, is they are not serious enough about this, and don't strive to return matters of dispute to God and the Messenger he has sent to the world.

All Messengers came as a mercy and love from God, we ruin his blessings, by turning away from them while they are signs and proofs of God. The signs they recite from God and his revelation, is all about revealing their reality as well.

When really reflected about, guidance and morality is synonymous, and goodness is act submissively and embracing wholeheartedly value with love in a guided way. If we love chaotically, and equate what is evil with what is good, and equate our love of petty things with the best being and Creator that is the origin and source of all praise, then we are the definition of what it means to be unjust and evil.

Goodness and loving properly, and loving in a guided way, is one and the same thing.    Love left with no guidance will attach itself to falsehood as much as to the truth.

Reason is capability of all humans, but we reason irrationally when we are not honest with ourselves and aren't committed to finding the truth.

Revelations from God facilitate reasoning, but not on our own terms, but God's terms.  Becoming truly familiar with the Torah and Bible and Quran, takes a heart that has to love the true source and has to listen to the caller who calls back to God that is with us all.

Atheism is beyond irrational and the problem with the religions out there is not that they have not all received the same truth and fundamental message of God's revelations, and it's not that the holy books from God all disappeared.

I's that we Theists take religion as a pastime, some sort of game, some sort of ego identity game.  

We don't take it serious enough to really hear God's wonders in his holy books that are spread all across the earth and are not limited to but include the Bible and Quran.

(August 11, 2018 at 4:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Goodness and morality in Atheistic paradigm has to be subjective and ungrounded and created through relatively chaotic means.  If it is so, everything we assume about it is baseless, and it's a delusion.  

Wrong. This is a false dichotomy, but thank you for playing anyway.

Quote:Goodness and morality in Atheistic paradigm has to be subjective and ungrounded and created through relatively chaotic means.  If it is so, everything we assume about it is baseless, and it's a delusion. 

Nope it both can be grounded and objective without theism and the means by which morality came about was anything but chaos .Thus this statement on Atheists and morality is the only delusion here .

(August 11, 2018 at 4:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Goodness and morality in Atheistic paradigm has to be subjective and ungrounded and created through relatively chaotic means.  If it is so, everything we assume about it is baseless, and it's a delusion.  

For just 2 sentences, you couldn't have possibly got more wrong.

First of all, there are secular moral systems that and grounded in objective reality. That objective reality is the physical universe, and the physical laws we are all subject to.

Second, it is possible to create a moral system based on the above, that is far from chaotic.

All you have to do is base morality on the well being (and ability to flourish) for humans.

From this basis, and taking into consideration a few simple prescepts, a moral system can be derived.

Just google for the video, "The superiority of secular morality".

Also google "The veil of ignorance" for a related topic..

(August 11, 2018 at 5:09 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: All you have to do is base morality on the well being (and ability to flourish) for humans.

Somethings with well-being can be defined objectively and independently of moral views, however, a lot of well being and sense of peace and contentment, lies in how we see ourselves.  And a lot of how see ourselves lies in moral standards we believe in. Hence, it's kind of circular to base morality on this.

The heart of well being is in knowing yourself, potential, and approaching the path of improving with balance, but this is the heart of what religion is about. So it's seem stupid to me that we make morality defined around well being, when the greater aspect of well being, is how we approach morality.

And well being itself is highly subjective in itself and health is even subjective when it comes to mental health.