Hi atheistforums people,

Forum newbie here, refugee from coming apocalypse at The Thinking Atheist, before that refugee from the Amazon atheist
forum.   Damn!  When will we finally have our own home in the Promised Land? 

Fortunately, during the last migration I had the foresight to save my obligatory background story of woe and redemption, and only need to change a few dates, this go-round.  It's long, and probably quite boring, but y'know, I do feel an obligation to let those providing the forum hospitality know what sort of creature they've let into their parlor.  (TTA-ers & Amazonians, pass it by, nothing here you haven't seen before...). 

As recently as 7-8 years ago I would have said the story of my atheist awakening was pretty typical. My experience may be
more typical than I know, but having reassessed it several times, I've still not yet encountered that many people who have
come to similar conclusions.  Be that as it may, here, esteemed brethren, is my testimony:

<CUE:  Organ music and soft Gospel choir in the background, good for the occasional "Hallelujah!"; tossing poisonous
snakes is optional>

Dad was Roman Catholic, mom was Russian Orthodox, but had to agree to raise the kids in the Roman Catholic Church
(RCC) in order to marry dad.   So, although the progeny were sent through the public school system, we were duly
indoctrinated in the arcanae and rituals of the Catholic church during Friday afternoon "religious instruction" sessions at the
Catholic school. (This was a mixed blessing -- we Catholic kids got to leave public school a half hour early on Fridays and
goof around in the streets on our way to the Catholic school. OTOH, we sat in Religious Instruction class for an hour after all
our friends in the public school had gone home for the weekend.) 

We then got to practice these rituals Sundays and holidays at church. (When I was very young, dad was also the choir
director and organist; eventually he wised up and moved into public school teaching...) I was also exposed to Russian
Orthodox churches and rituals whenever we visited mom's relatives (the RO church was much like the RCC, except they
really went in for gold icons in a big way).

We were taught a lot of things that didn't strike me as much different in nature from the Aesop's' fables, Greek myths, and
various kid's stories with talking animals, etc. that we got in the public school. We were also taught a lot of stuff that even as
early as 7 or 8 years old didn't make sense to me. Unlike public school, asking probing questions during religious instruction
was -not- encouraged by the nuns, many of which were first generation immigrants from eastern Europe and didn't speak
English all that well, anyway. 

Some of the stuff they taught us was downright weird, and when I brought some of it home to my parents they thought it was
weird, too. Interestingly, when this happened with public school issues, it usually resulted in parental inquiries to the school,
and sometimes parent/teacher conferences. When it happened with religious instruction, no such inquiries or conferences
occurred. My parents' attitudes seemed to be that we weren't really supposed to understand the finer points of theology and
biblology, but simply learn our lessons so that we could spit them back at rote to the nuns, as we were led through the
various milestone "sacraments" like confession, communion, confirmation, etc.

In those days Catholics weren't encouraged to read the Bible (as far as I can tell, they still aren't, mostly). It wasn't forbidden,
just not encouraged. Few Catholic families of my acquaintance even owned a complete Bible. What we had were
"catechisms" for the kids, and "missals" for the adults. These contained various Biblical excerpts and other information (ritual
responses, prayers, etc.) that were officially tied to each particular Mass of the year. If you had questions beyond that, you
were expected to talk to your priest, who would answer them for you -- maybe.  (Garrison Keillor once quipped that Catholics
in church were more interested in the bulletin than the Bible; he had to have visited a Catholic church and taken in a Mass,
because, in my experience, this is quite true.)

I had an early interest in science and math which was, fortunately, encouraged. As I grew older, and learned more and more
about how the physical world worked, I found myself wondering more and more why so much emphasis was being placed on
my learning the particular set of unlikely stories being presented by the nuns and priests. And I found the "answers" I was
getting from those functionaries to be less and less compelling. God didn't really seem to be necessary, and no one had a
good explanation as to why He was. 

Unbelief, however, was not an option. At the time, I didn't really even know that such a state existed; it was never talked
about in any meaningful way. The word "atheist" was rarely heard, and when it was it was spoken in the same sort of hushed
and mildly disgusted tone as someone might say "child molester".  Beyond the bare definition that an "atheist" was someone
who didn't believe in God, I had no idea what such a creature might be like. It was inconceivable that someone didn't believe
in God, even if they didn't bother to go to church regularly. Everyone was expected to believe, or so all of the adults around
me kept telling me. For most of my childhood the conception of "atheist" I developed was of some sort of vaguely evil
antisocial pervert who, kind of like a "communist" was out to undermine all that was good and wholesome about America, and
replace it with totalitarian slavery, at best. And they probably lurked in the bushes around school yards hoping to entice
unwary kids into their ranks.

Then I hit my teens. At 13 I was suddenly allowed certain freedoms that I hadn't previously had, among which, I was now
allowed to visit the library without adult supervision. Well, at that age any excuse to get away from the parents for a bit was a
good one, even if it meant going to the library, so I did, and I started  exploring, and I discovered -- shockingly -- that the
library had whole stacks full of books about religion. I guess I had thought up to that point that only priests had books like
this. And I found a shelf full of Bibles, and I checked one out and read it from cover to cover. That was the beginning of the
end for any pretense to religious belief that I still had.

If I had thought some of the stuff they taught in religious instruction was strange, reading the verses in context made me
realize how much of the really bizarre had been filtered out. (To this day I think the priests knew exactly what they were doing
by not encouraging Bible-reading, and emphasizing the highly-selective missals instead.)  The more I read, the less I could
understand how any adult could take this stuff seriously, much less base an entire life-plan on it. It all seemed even more
fantastic than the most outrageous adventures of the ancient Greek heroes, or the stuff I was reading in comic books.
Needless to say, this aroused some cognitive dissonance, so I did what every good Catholic boy was taught to do in such
cases -- I went to the priest with my Bible, and a whole list of questions.

The priest readily agreed to grant me an audience, but he didn't answer any of my questions. Instead, he took one look at the
Bible I brought -- a King James Version -- and went off on a lecture about how this was not the "real" Bible, and that if I were
going to study the Bible I needed to get a proper Bible, duly approved by the Church. He showed me what to look for, so I
went back to the library and got an official Catholic Bible. Read it from cover to cover. Found a few extra short books in the
middle, and a few passages (mostly in the OT) in which the language had been slightly modernized (brought from the 17th
century up to the early 19th century, at least). Otherwise, same stuff.

This not only failed to answer my original questions, it raised a whole raft of new ones. Why the big deal about which Bible
one read?   And, come to that, why the whole big deal about which particular church one went to?  Why, especially, the big
deal about whether one was a Catholic or a Protestant? They all used the same book, essentially -- 95% identical, as far as I
could tell, and the differences seemed inconsequential. Yet I was being taught in public school history class that people had
been killing each other in religiously motivated wars for at least 500 years over just those sorts of differences.

I didn't go back to the priest right away. Instead, I started  visiting 'other' churches (keeping this a secret from my parents). 
First the other Catholic churches down the street. Then, one momentous day, I went to a Protestant church.

This was a Very Big Deal:  One of the "interesting" things the nuns taught us in religious instruction was that we were NEVER
to set foot inside a non-Catholic church; these were not "real" churches, and if we ever did such a thing God would STRIKE
US DEAD on the spot.  (OTOH, we were supposed to try to entice our non-Catholic friends to come with us to the "true"
[Catholic] church. This was seen as a gesture of concern for their spiritual welfare.)  I was still young enough to think there
might be something to that warning, but my intellectual curiosity and, I suppose, teenage contrariness were such that I HAD to
find out for myself.

So, I went with a friend to an Episcopal church. Blessed myself before entering (just in case), and stepped over the threshold,
waiting for the lightning bolt from heaven.  Nothing happened. It looked a lot like some of the Catholic churches I had been in.
The service was a lot like some Catholic services I had seen in smaller churches. The people were friends and families from
the neighborhood, and none of them had horns or tails. No babies were sacrificed or eaten. Even the music was similar. I was
both greatly relieved, and vaguely disappointed.

Well.

This got me experimenting with other churches. I went to Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Baptist services. I watched the older
brother of a friend get married in an Assembly of God hall.  I went to a synagogue with a couple of Jewish friends (loved the
little hats).  And they were reading from the same damned books as the Catholics, or at least some of them.   The more I saw,
the more I was struck not by the differences, but by the similarities.  Yet all of the adults in authority over and around me kept
insisting that it was the differences which were vitally important; wars were still being fought over them in places like Northern
Ireland.

Finally I was forced to conclude that either the adults around me had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about what God wanted them
to do or how He wanted them to live, or else... there was no God there to tell them anything, and they were all fooling
themselves.  I reached this conclusion before I turned 15. At that time of life (in a young American male's life, anyway) it's
pretty easy to believe that most, if not all of the adults around you are overbearing fools anyway, so I inclined towards the
latter explanation.

Still, although I had realized that I didn't believe in God any longer, I didn't really think of myself as an "atheist."  That term still
had unsavory connotations, and tying myself to it could only cause trouble.  So from that point I became a 'closet unbeliever.'
I still went through all the expected motions around church on Sundays and holidays, but it wasn't the same for me.  The
mystical elements were gone, and the only remaining mystery was whether most of the adults around me really believed in
the mysticism themselves, or were just putting on the act they thought society expected of them (as, essentially, I now was).

Externally, life didn't change much.  My unbelief was a private thing that I didn't really talk about with anyone. Partly, I think,
because it was still being codified, but also partly because I didn't think there was anyone I could  talk to who wouldn't be
thoroughly shocked by my position, and turn me in to whoever one turned atheists in to for rehabilitation. A few of my high
school friends got caught up in various "born again" Christian movements, and I did have some long and intense discussions
with them.  I managed to cause enough doubt to save a few of them from evangelical clutches, too, which I don't regret. But
never by promoting atheism; always by persistent questioning, and pointing out the inconsistencies, contradictions, and
absurdities of religion.

Studied a lot of science and math, got a bunch of scholarships, and went off to college to study science and engineering. It
was in college that I discovered a field called "philosophy," and it opened a whole new world for me. It was also in college I
discovered that were actually quite a few people who had no trouble at all calling themselves "atheists," although they didn't
make a big deal out of it, and that they were as normal, functional, and diverse group of citizens as any other demographic. 
At the age of 19 I discovered -- not a community, exactly -- but at least a number of kindred souls to whom "atheist" wasn't a
dirty word.  So that's the point from which I date my public "coming out" as an atheist (although I didn't tell my parents in so
many words for another decade.)

From that point, and for most of my adult life, my atheism was no big deal. It was a part of who I was, but I didn't go out of my
way to talk about it.  The difference was, if somebody did ask about my religious beliefs, I was no longer shy about
discussing my actual position in detail. Outside of a few philosophy seminars the topic just didn't come up that often, though I
did fend off a few well-meaning but (to me) overzealous "atheist evangelists" who tried to recruit me into various humanist
organizations to spread the good word. (This always struck me as vaguely silly -- like the Piraro comic with the two atheists
going door-to-door handing out blank pamphlets.)

Then, as trite as it may sound, I think the events of 9/11/01 were another turning point for me. Here was an event that
underscored just how dangerous and damaging religion could still be, and in assessing that event I began reflecting on the
various ways in which religion -- mostly Christianity in the US -- had been subtly and not so subtly encroaching on secular
society for a long time. The battles to get creationism taught as science. The attempts to institutionalize discrimination against
various social groups. The insistence on government recognition of the US as a "Christian nation". Cover-ups of child abuse. 
Bombed clinics and murdered doctors.  Artistic censorship.  The notion that God wanted the US to invade Iraq. 
So, I went out and started participating again in on- and off-line discussions about religion, atheism, and doing a certain amount of social advocacy.  I now realize that these are critical issues in determining how our society, and perhaps how our species is going
to go in the near and distant future. I don't consider myself a radical atheist like Hitchens or Dawkins, but I do consider myself
a strong atheist, an atheist advocate, and an areligionist.

One result of this newfound activism has been a closer and deeper look at what I had always regarded as my own
"conversion" to atheism.  Previously I believed that, while I had doubts as a child, I was essentially a believer, and that
reading  the Bible and failing to find convincing explanations for what I found there had tipped me over into unbelief.

I no longer believe that to be true.  What I now believe is that I was born an atheist.  That I never really did believe, even as a
child.  But as a child, I first of all had to go through the motions of what was expected of me by the adults upon whom I relied,
and second, had at the time no clear concept of any viable alternative.  What I now think is that the transition of my early
teens was not a "conversion" to atheism, but a realization and slow acquisition of understanding about the unbelief which had
been a part of my makeup from the beginning.

This has raised some interesting questions.  I find myself wondering whether it is really possible to actually change
from belief to unbelief, or vice versa, by intellectual effort alone.  I feel like there must be some people for whom this is true,
but it no longer seems like such a simple, or cut-and-dried process as I once imagined it to be.  What I do know at this point is
that I can't "make myself believe" something; I either do, or I don't.   Should circumstances warrant, I could certainly behave
as if I believed something, and that might even fool most people. But it wouldn't be the same thing as real belief.

And so, here I am.
 
I was never "saved", because I was never "lost". 
Maybe just a little confused for a while.

All that said, I've got a portfolio of sheepskins in engineering, science, and a few less illustrious fields; have worked in
number of interesting and not so interesting professions, the most useful of which was probably teaching, which I still do on
occasion; I'm a musician with wide and weird tastes; a homebrewer and single malt enthusiast; and a social anarchist who
sometimes follows political tangents in discussions further off topic than non-fanatics are comfortable with. 

As a poster with Usenet in my past, I can be as suave and urbane or as obnoxious and unpleasant as circumstances call for;
I tend to go with the flow.  Irreverence and sarcasm are constant companions, though I do work hard to not be gratuitously
offensive.

Oh, and I'm an atheist, did I mention that?


Shhh... don't tell anyone.



P.S.  This damned forum better be around for a while, because I don't want to have to do this again for a l-o-n-g time.

I’m not gonna lie. I didn’t read the whole thing. I welcome you, though.

Do you like cilantro?

I did read the whole thing. Though I "know" you from TTA, I'd never read an intro like this from you. Glad you posted it.

Especially like the parts about reading the bible(s). A college course during my first semester at a Methodist-based private college, called "The Bible Yesterday and Today" was a major eye-opener for me. Taught by a "man of god," who would soon become my adviser. I am still grateful for that class and that professor. College is a great place to start asking questions. Especially the hard ones.

Quote:Forum newbie here, refugee from coming apocalypse at The Thinking Atheist, before that refugee from the Amazon atheist forum. 

Perhaps you are bad luck?

Welcome anyway.  We will try to survive you.

Welcome Woof!

Care to sniff my ass?

Welcome to AF

Tl; dr
Sorry

Welcome home, doctor.

Why TTA forum was shutdown?

Welcome! (I did not read your post)

(September 25, 2018 at 9:49 pm)Dr H Wrote: Forum newbie here, refugee from coming apocalypse at The Thinking Atheist, before that refugee from the Amazon atheist
forum.   Damn!  When will we finally have our own home in the Promised Land? 

Wait, so you're the one who's cursed to travel through cyberspace closing down every forum you join?

We're fucked.