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October 9, 2018 at 9:22 am (This post was last modified: October 9, 2018 at 9:27 am by LadyForCamus.)
(October 9, 2018 at 12:51 am)Huggy74 Wrote:
(October 8, 2018 at 7:35 pm)Shell B Wrote:
The bottom line is, I'm telling you as a matter of first-hand, personal experience, women can and do get raped and don't report it for decades. I would report in a second if anyone who fucked with me was about to be in a position of power. There you go. You now know it's possible. It's not a viable argument against his guilt.
I was 16. He was in his 20s. I let him kiss me at a party. When I was the last one left at the party and tried to go home, he said, "Don't you think it's too late for that?" I didn't resist. I said no, but I otherwise mentally and physically flatlined for the duration of what happened next. Then, I told no one. I was repulsed by him. I was embarrassed to tell anyone he'd touched me. I still am. Even writing this now, I feel like I will be judged as a "victim," "a whore," "a liar," "a drama queen," etc. I think people judge me personally for having been raped. I'm probably right. That's just one of multiple situations that occurred in my life, two because I was a helpless child (not particularly traumatic events, but molestation nonetheless) and two more because I drank around the wrong boys in my teens. Do you know how many people would blame me for the situations that happened in my teens? I do, because I see you people verbally assassinating other people like me on a daily basis. Fuck reporting. People still just want victims to shut up and keep feeding the machine.
(October 8, 2018 at 9:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:
Sadly, this is what it’s come to, to get something through Huggy’s dense skull. I can’t let ShellB be all alone in her painful disclosure:
I went to a house party with my friends the year after I graduated college. I drank too much, threw up, and passed out in one of the bedrooms. My friends tried to get me to leave with them but I was too wasted. I woke up on my stomach, pants and underwear pulled down, and someone I couldn’t see pushing himself inside me. I yelled at him to stop twice, and he didn’t. I twisted around and looked at him, trying to push him off of me. He said: “you don’t even know what’s going on right now.” and stormed out of the room. I just wanted to go home, but the acquaintance who’s house it was insisted on calling the cops. I had no choice in this. I didn’t want him too. I just wanted to go home. I was basically forced to report it. My roommate at the time guilted me into driving all the way back the next day to give a formal statement at the police headquarters because she had suffered a similar assault in HS, and never told anyone. I wanted NONE of this. I did what other people wanted me to do. To this day I regret reporting it, because nothing came of my painful retelling of the incident. It accomplished literally nothing. If I could go back in time, I would have never told the police. The embarrassment, the shame, the questioning...was as bad as the assault. Up your nose with a rubber hose, Huggy.
Ladies, never once did I state I didn't believe you, or question why one would wait so long, but at the same time, we shouldn't just automatically assume one is guilty because he's accused by any number of women. When accusers are giving contradicting testimony or caught lying we need to take a step back and be objective.
I hate to bring up race, but race has ALWAYS been at the center of issues in America, it is what it is.
Never in the history of this country has a white woman accused a black man of rape and not been believed. Plenty of men have been lynched, whole black communities have been massacred and burned to the ground over rape ALLEGATIONS (Tulsa, Rosewood ect.). In fact "Black wall street" (Tulsa) was bombed from the air over a white woman accusing a black man of rape.
Quote:The Tulsa Race Massacre occurred in late May 31 and June 1, 1921. During the massacre, 35 square blocks of homes and businesses were torched by mobs of angry whites. The ransacking began because of the alleged assault of a white elevator operator, 17-year-old Sarah Page, by a black shoeshiner, 19-year-old Dick Rowland. The attack killed hundreds and left an estimated 10,000 people homeless. The city government of Tulsa conspired with the mob, arresting more than 6,000 black residents and refusing to provide them with protection or assistance. Law enforcement officials used airplanes to drop firebombs on buildings, homes, and fleeing families, stating they were protecting against a "Negro uprising." The massacre was omitted from state and local records, and "rarely mentioned in history books, classrooms, or even in private."
My next point is going to sound braggadocios, but from my experiences of being an average young single male, I have been approached by plenty of women, and have had sex with plenty of women. I can count on three fingers the amount of times I've approached a woman vs. the amount of time a woman has approached me, again, I'm just average. If any of those women decided to accuse me of rape, I'd be screwed if not for the statute of limitations, because how would I defend myself after all those years? I couldn't even tell you some of their names, let alone produce any evidence in my defense.
Cosby was a rich good looking dude so I could only imagine the amount of women he was approached by, added to the claim that he had to drug these women to have sex with them is absurd, again, based on my experience.
So my question to you ladies is...
Is it wrong to ask for evidence to support an accusation of rape?
Huggy, no one is saying that is wrong. What Shell and I are trying to communicate to you through our personal experiences; what people have been trying and failing to get through to you throughout this thread without anyone having to talk personally about their own rapes; is that there are legitimate, justified, psychological reasons victims of sexual assault don’t report the crime to authorities. The length of time that it takes for a victim to come forward is not related in any way to the likelihood of that person telling the truth about the assault. Of course, to convict a man in a court of law there should be some corroborating evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. But, what we’re saying to you is, taking a long time to come forward is not evidence that contradicts an alleged assault. “If she was really raped, she would have told someone”, is a non-sequitur.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Like it or not, Huggy Bear, simple fame isn't enough to ensure that people don't feel the need to play hardball with women they want to screw, even if the women would have gladly done it without drugs. We have a deposition where we have Cosby state outright that he gave women illegal sedatives to make them more pliable for sex:
(October 9, 2018 at 12:51 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Ladies, never once did I state I didn't believe you, or question why one would wait so long, but at the same time, we shouldn't just automatically assume one is guilty because he's accused by any number of women. When accusers are giving contradicting testimony or caught lying we need to take a step back and be objective.
I agree. I do think you brought up the amount of time between the incident and reporting, but I'm glad we can get past that. The assumption of guilt before a trial shouldn't exist. We can even be dubious after. However, you may have to entertain the idea that Cosby was a serial rapist.
Quote:I hate to bring up race, but race has ALWAYS been at the center of issues in America, it is what it is.
I agree. Race is important in cases like these, but only insomuch as we have to investigate whether discrimination occurred. A white woman isn't automatically lying if she accuses a black man. For my part, I've never been assaulted by a black man, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Quote:Never in the history of this country has a white woman accused a black man of rape and not been believed. Plenty of men have been lynched, whole black communities have been massacred and burned to the ground over rape ALLEGATIONS (Tulsa, Rosewood ect.). In fact "Black wall street" (Tulsa) was bombed from the air over a white woman accusing a black man of rape.
I wouldn't say never. That's a tall statement. I do agree that it's been a problem, and it's an ugly one. That doesn't mean black men don't rape white women sometimes. There's not a lot of discrimination in the rape game. You like raping, you rape folks.
Quote:My next point is going to sound braggadocios, but from my experiences of being an average young single male, I have been approached by plenty of women, and have had sex with plenty of women. I can count on three fingers the amount of times I've approached a woman vs. the amount of time a woman has approached me, again, I'm just average. If any of those women decided to accuse me of rape, I'd be screwed if not for the statute of limitations, because how would I defend myself after all those years? I couldn't even tell you some of their names, let alone produce any evidence in my defense.
It's highly doubtful that you would be convicted on the testimony of one or two women. It's also highly doubtful that 60 of them would come forward if you didn't actually rape at least some of them.
Quote:Cosby was a rich good looking dude so I could only imagine the amount of women he was approached by, added to the claim that he had to drug these women to have sex with them is absurd, again, based on my experience.
That's a stretch. He was a goofy-ass motherfucker, if you ask me.
Quote:Is it wrong to ask for evidence to support an accusation of rape?
Nope. It's perfectly fine. It's not perfectly fine to call accusers liars in the process. It's delicate and should be treated that way.
October 9, 2018 at 10:31 am (This post was last modified: October 9, 2018 at 10:45 am by Rev. Rye.)
(October 9, 2018 at 10:24 am)Shell B Wrote:
Quote:Is it wrong to ask for evidence to support an accusation of rape?
Nope. It's perfectly fine. It's not perfectly fine to call accusers liars in the process. It's delicate and should be treated that way.
If only more skeptics in rape cases at least had the courtesy to handle alleged victims they're not convinced of like this.
Also, things of note that the book makes clear but the film doesn't: it's heavily implied that not only was Mayella regularly raped by her father, but there's a distinct possibility that she's actually the mother of the youngest Ewell kids. She's also so sheltered that she doesn't seem familiar with friendship as a concept. Nevertheless, she (on the prompting of her abusive father) falsely accused Tom Robinson of rape. If you have to question their stories, tread lightly.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.
I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
October 9, 2018 at 11:09 am (This post was last modified: October 9, 2018 at 11:23 am by Huggy Bear.)
(October 9, 2018 at 10:17 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: Like it or not, Huggy Bear, simple fame isn't enough to ensure that people don't feel the need to play hardball with women they want to screw, even if the women would have gladly done it without drugs. We have a deposition where we have Cosby state outright that he gave women illegal sedatives to make them more pliable for sex:
(October 9, 2018 at 10:24 am)Shell B Wrote: Nope. It's perfectly fine. It's not perfectly fine to call accusers liars in the process. It's delicate and should be treated that way.
If only more skeptics in rape cases at least had the courtesy to handle alleged victims they're not convinced of like this.
Also, things of note that the book makes clear but the film doesn't: it's heavily implied that not only was Mayella regularly raped by her father, but there's a distinct possibility that she's actually the mother of the youngest Ewell kids. She's also so sheltered that she doesn't seem familiar with friendship as a concept. Nevertheless, she (on the prompting of her abusive father) falsely accused Tom Robinson of rape. If you have to question their stories, tread lightly.
Atticus Finch is the fantasy of what a lawyer should be.
October 9, 2018 at 11:16 am (This post was last modified: October 9, 2018 at 11:17 am by Rev. Rye.)
(October 9, 2018 at 11:12 am)Shell B Wrote:
(October 9, 2018 at 10:31 am)Rev. Rye Wrote:
If only more skeptics in rape cases at least had the courtesy to handle alleged victims they're not convinced of like this.
Also, things of note that the book makes clear but the film doesn't: it's heavily implied that not only was Mayella regularly raped by her father, but there's a distinct possibility that she's actually the mother of the youngest Ewell kids. She's also so sheltered that she doesn't seem familiar with friendship as a concept. Nevertheless, she (on the prompting of her abusive father) falsely accused Tom Robinson of rape. If you have to question their stories, tread lightly.
Atticus Finch is the fantasy of what a lawyer should be.
Or the fantasy of what a human being trying to confront injustice should be. And if To Set z Watchman is any indication, it really is a fantasy.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.
I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
(October 9, 2018 at 11:12 am)Shell B Wrote: Atticus Finch is the fantasy of what a lawyer should be.
Or the fantasy of what a human being trying to confront injustice should be. And if To Set z Watchman is any indication, it really is a fantasy.
Go Set a Watchman kind of pisses me off in that it was her first conception of the novel. She changed that character, and now people are all like "Finch was actually a racist." He fucking wasn't because she adapted the character before the final draft of To Kill a Mockingbird. I know it's different enough to be it's own book, but that's not how she wrote it. It was To Kill a Mockingbird at its earliest stages. Poor Harper Lee.
October 9, 2018 at 11:32 am (This post was last modified: October 9, 2018 at 11:50 am by Huggy Bear.)
(October 9, 2018 at 9:22 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(October 9, 2018 at 12:51 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Ladies, never once did I state I didn't believe you, or question why one would wait so long, but at the same time, we shouldn't just automatically assume one is guilty because he's accused by any number of women. When accusers are giving contradicting testimony or caught lying we need to take a step back and be objective.
I hate to bring up race, but race has ALWAYS been at the center of issues in America, it is what it is.
Never in the history of this country has a white woman accused a black man of rape and not been believed. Plenty of men have been lynched, whole black communities have been massacred and burned to the ground over rape ALLEGATIONS (Tulsa, Rosewood ect.). In fact "Black wall street" (Tulsa) was bombed from the air over a white woman accusing a black man of rape.
My next point is going to sound braggadocios, but from my experiences of being an average young single male, I have been approached by plenty of women, and have had sex with plenty of women. I can count on three fingers the amount of times I've approached a woman vs. the amount of time a woman has approached me, again, I'm just average. If any of those women decided to accuse me of rape, I'd be screwed if not for the statute of limitations, because how would I defend myself after all those years? I couldn't even tell you some of their names, let alone produce any evidence in my defense.
Cosby was a rich good looking dude so I could only imagine the amount of women he was approached by, added to the claim that he had to drug these women to have sex with them is absurd, again, based on my experience.
So my question to you ladies is...
Is it wrong to ask for evidence to support an accusation of rape?
Huggy, no one is saying that is wrong. What Shell and I are trying to communicate to you through our personal experiences; what people have been trying and failing to get through to you throughout this thread without anyone having to talk personally about their own rapes; is that there are legitimate, justified, psychological reasons victims of sexual assault don’t report the crime to authorities. The length of time that it takes for a victim to come forward is not related in any way to the likelihood of that person telling the truth about the assault. Of course, to convict a man in a court of law there should be some corroborating evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. But, what we’re saying to you is, taking a long time to come forward is not evidence that contradicts an alleged assault. “If she was really raped, she would have told someone”, is a non-sequitur.
I've never once questioned why it took the accusers so long to come forward, it has no relevance to this case because statute of limitations is in effect. My issue is with the facts of the TRIAL which involved ONE woman and she went to the police within a year of the incident.
I don't believe anyone in this whole thread has stated “If she was really raped, she would have told someone”.
I believe we're in agreement for the most part, but I will address this.
(October 9, 2018 at 10:24 am)Shell B Wrote:
Quote:Cosby was a rich good looking dude so I could only imagine the amount of women he was approached by, added to the claim that he had to drug these women to have sex with them is absurd, again, based on my experience.
That's a stretch. He was a goofy-ass motherfucker, if you ask me.
That's because you haven't seen a young Cosby, our introduction to Cosby was in the 80's - 90's which by that time he was in his 50's.
(October 9, 2018 at 9:22 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Huggy, no one is saying that is wrong. What Shell and I are trying to communicate to you through our personal experiences; what people have been trying and failing to get through to you throughout this thread without anyone having to talk personally about their own rapes; is that there are legitimate, justified, psychological reasons victims of sexual assault don’t report the crime to authorities. The length of time that it takes for a victim to come forward is not related in any way to the likelihood of that person telling the truth about the assault. Of course, to convict a man in a court of law there should be some corroborating evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. But, what we’re saying to you is, taking a long time to come forward is not evidence that contradicts an alleged assault. “If she was really raped, she would have told someone”, is a non-sequitur.
I've never once questioned why it took the accusers so long to come forward, it has no relevance to this case because statute of limitations is in effect. My issue is with the facts of the TRIAL which involved ONE woman and she went to the police within a year of the incident.
I don't believe anyone in this whole thread has stated “If she was really raped, she would have told someone”.
I believe we're in agreement for the most part, but I will address this.
(October 9, 2018 at 10:24 am)Shell B Wrote: That's a stretch. He was a goofy-ass motherfucker, if you ask me.
That's because you haven't seen a young Cosby, our introduction to Cosby was in the 80's - 90's which by that time he was in his 50's.
It's personal taste, but nope. He looks like a dweeb that needs a nap. Now, I'm not shallow. I can understand that other women might be into that, but I don't see the draw at all.
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