(November 12, 2018 at 12:59 pm)Everena Wrote:

(November 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Since you yourself don't believe that the universe came from true nothing, I don't see that we have any disagreement about this.  I could catalog numerous reasons why I don't think the universe came from this or that God, but I don't see the point until you explain why it would matter.  As to whether the universe came from either true nothing or the type of nothing which Lawrence Krauss talks about, I'm open to both possibilities, but not decisively convinced of either.  There are multiple scientific hypotheses as to where the universe came from, despite your bullshit denial that they are not part of science.  So what's your point here?

Well.. 93% of the world is hypothesizing that higher intelligence was involved in the creation of this universe and no one is calling that science so......

Still not seeing a point here.

(November 12, 2018 at 12:59 pm)Everena Wrote:

(November 12, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Since you yourself don't believe that the universe came from true nothing, I don't see that we have any disagreement about this.  I could catalog numerous reasons why I don't think the universe came from this or that God, but I don't see the point until you explain why it would matter.  As to whether the universe came from either true nothing or the type of nothing which Lawrence Krauss talks about, I'm open to both possibilities, but not decisively convinced of either.  There are multiple scientific hypotheses as to where the universe came from, despite your bullshit denial that they are not part of science.  So what's your point here?

Well.. 93% of the world is hypothesizing that higher intelligence was involved in the creation of this universe and no one is calling that science so......

93% of the world has been hypothesizing that since the infancy of human thought, because it is the sort of wish thinking thought that infants untroubled with reality come to. Only the 7% has the intellectual discipline and is is up to the task of growing out of intellectual infancy.

 

I have a partner in crime on these forums! She reminds me of my Deist days!

(November 12, 2018 at 12:53 pm)Everena Wrote: But we feel that we do know. I personally know beyond any and all doubt, so I am not going to pretend that I don't.

People feel things, I'm not discounting that. What I am discounting is one's ability to discern feeling something from actual reality.

I may feel that I want fairies to exist because of Tinker Bell was portrayed in the tale of Peter Pan whereby she could only be saved via my clapping. Substitute Tinker Bell with man dying from sin and belief in god being the only salvation, and we have the same equation.

The thing with life is that these equations always end up being the same, which is how we can recognize the false ones from the real ones, because we have to honestly admit that conceptualized faiths often leads to intellectual bondage.

(November 12, 2018 at 11:53 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(November 12, 2018 at 11:50 am)Everena Wrote: Atheism is a choice. A delusional bubble you have chosen to be in, in order to not feel like you have to follow any dictated moral code, or be held accountable for you actions.

Atheism is a choice, but it's a choice of not fighting the irrational doubt hard enough, and not perceiving through vision, it's an act of weakness mostly, not rebellion.

What you describe, is what people do when they see miracles like Jesus raising the dead, and still rebel. That's when they try to escape the light.

Otherwise,  they may just have no strength to believe or disbelieve, they don't perceive the proofs, and words don't convince everyone.

So... let's hope God pardons most humans - because the proofs and miracles, are not clear in this day and age, and the holy books are misinterpreted and mistranslated.

I don't think God pardons anyone for intentionally hurting other people. I think we will suffer through any pain we have intentionally caused until we finally learn to stop causing pain to others (especially to our soulmate/other half). That is how we become more godlike and more deserving of an eternity in paradise.

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(November 12, 2018 at 11:54 am)Kit Wrote:

(November 12, 2018 at 11:52 am)Everena Wrote: Well over a billion people in the world believe what I believe and it is observable.

Clearly, your definition of observable is different than mine.

Not surprising, however, for your type tends to misconstrue for your own bias.

I think people going through hell on earth right now is very easily observable and that is what I was talking about.

(November 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)Everena Wrote: I think people going through hell on earth right now is very easily obwervable and that is what I was talking about.

You misconstruing someone suffering as going through hell in order to perpetuate a ridiculous religious concept is no different than someone calling someone else cursed in order to perpetuate superstition.

(November 12, 2018 at 12:45 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(November 12, 2018 at 12:04 pm)Everena Wrote: I welcome your ideas and thoughts. I am only voicing my own opinion based on what I've experienced with atheists through the years. I used to think that some very bad people being part of religions had turned people away from God. Later I considered that perhaps the suffering in the world had turned people away from God. The more time I spent discussing God with the atheists I know personally and with the atheists I have debated with online, the more I realized something very different. Atheism is almost a personality type.

Nah. Maybe with some. But not everybody.

I am a skeptic. I tend to question things which are not founded on solid evidence. That is the beginning, middle, and end of my atheism. As a human being, I have a problem with religion. But as an atheist, I have a problem with unfounded claims.

People's personal experiences are not a good foundation for believing in something. Let's consider the Hitler Youth. A lot of kids got involved in the Hitler Youth, and (if you read about people's memories about such things) you will see it was an intensely positive experience for a great many of them. All it really was was "German Boy Scouts" with a swastika slapped on it for advertising purposes. The problem is this: when they weren't camping, singing songs, and paying special attention to the member's positive development, the Hitler Youth fed the youngsters propaganda about Jews and other enemies of the Nazi party.

For you to argue that your positive experience with religion signifies that that religious claims are objectively true is to argue that some kid's experience with the Hitler Youth makes the correspondent claims of THAT organization true. It doesn't.

PS: I hope you realize that I'm not equating believers with Nazis. I'm simply picking an organization whose claims are demonstrably false in order to make a point about how positive experience ought not influence belief.

I have not just had positive experiences. I have had incredible and undeniable.spiritual experiences (some mutual/shared experiences) and signs that have proven God to me beyond any and all doubt.

(November 12, 2018 at 1:27 pm)Everena Wrote: I have not just had positive experiences. I have had incredible and undeniable.spiritual experiences (some mutual/shared experiences) and signs that have proven God to me beyond any and all doubt.

At least you understand that personal experiences are just that. Your personal experience is not evidence of anything realistic, for it pertains only to you in your frame of mind (whatever that may be).

(November 12, 2018 at 1:01 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(November 12, 2018 at 12:59 pm)Everena Wrote: Well.. 93% of the world is hypothesizing that higher intelligence was involved in the creation of this universe and no one is calling that science so......

93% of the world has been hypothesizing that since the infancy of human thought, because it is the sort of wish thinking thought that infants untroubled with reality come to.   Only the 7% has the intellectual discipline and is is up to the task of growing out of intellectual infancy.

To be fair, it's much, much easier to give up on endless life idea, especially one that involves torture.

(November 12, 2018 at 12:48 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: I've said it in this thread before.  It's just amazing that everything just has to have a creator EXCEPT, conveniently, your imaginary friend.

And something from nothing is a religious concept, not necessarily a scientific one.  Your god and poofing the universe into existence are prime examples.

You atheists are the only ones who believe the entire universe just poofed in existence. We realize that higher intelligence was involved and was an absolute necessity for all of this to come to be as it has. God always has been and always will be. Infinite and eternal, just like our true selves.