(December 17, 2018 at 4:01 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Is there something here that you’d like to discuss, or...?  I’m not really sure what you’re talking about, tbh.

As far as I can tell Agnostico has no interest in actual discussion. He’s just here to talk at us and try to provoke people.

Losty, most trolls on the net are on the net because they're angry or frustrated at something irl.
Some were told to clean their room, others are in the bible belt and just realized they are gay, others are just nerds (not in a good way), others have abusive parents, others are sick of serving fries, others have disenfranchised themselves by doing time, etc ... Pretty sure this last crop of trolls all fall into one of these categories.
Or they're just angry assholes who just happen to label themselves as theists... We don't paint all theists with the same brush.

Hehehe funny how many times people claim morals are innate and that religion was a created for a need of a God to worship
Tell them not all the religions worship a God and they go missing in action

Theres just no depth to the atheist belief/disbelief

At work.

(December 18, 2018 at 3:18 am)Agnostico Wrote: Hehehe funny how many times people claim morals are innate and that religion was a created for a need of a God to worship
Tell them not all the religions worship a God and they go missing in action

Theres just no depth to the atheist belief/disbelief

Yes, I see such claims and conversations with the myriad Youtube channels I peruse.

You are right. Quite often theist(s) start spinning their wheels when some of the problems with their proposed moral origin stories get brought up.

I must admit, though, to not grokking the final line in your post.

Cheers.

That's correct AG. There IS no depth to a very simple question. The lack of belief in god(s).

What sort of depth were you after? I'm pretty sure the topic you may like to be deep has nothing to do with atheism.

(December 17, 2018 at 7:29 pm)Agnostico Wrote: I think I forgot to mention the topic of God is old to me and seems almost unrelated to morals.

Well like I postulated in the other post I think religions may have been created to form the foundation for morals in society. The need for a "sky god" theory falls apart for me with religions like Buddhism. Many of them don't worship any Gods. Also I can't imagine man having the time to ponder such a question which brings no immediate result to the difficult state of life at the time.

So the question to why are there always these religions puzzles me. Though I'm sure some here are quite comfortable in ignoring eastern religions to stick to their sky daddy desire complex

Our morals are based on self, here and now. They vary between people. If I polled a question, any question like abortion there will be different opinions. Which one is right? How do we know it's right? Right for who? Each person's opinion is made on their preferences. Cave man's preferences are based on instincts, on self preservation. I don't see much about morals in a societal context, always of self.

So although a person without religion can be a good person, a society needs to operate on one unified moral system which is built not for us, here and now but for future generations. Humans are very narcissistic. They believe they can control the weather, create a new universe and are all knowing.

I read that if a person doesn't have a religion then the text or entity which they value the highest will be their religion or God. This leads to a hostile and dogmatic defense of this God which mirrors theists defence of their doctrines. I find this so true which scares me cos I see what I was like wen I was an atheist/anti theist and I never want to be in that closed off mindset again.

I can get the 10 commandments and mirror many of them onto atheism.

This Gae Bolga guy for example looks only about 26-28yo, uses only agriculture to form theories while ignoring all the others factors. Yet refuses to enter a civilized discourse dismissing any argument as if he is this all knowing entity by which the laws of nature adhere to. To these types of snowflakes I say grow up. U are not unique. Ur thoughts are just that... Thoughts. Immature thoughts that will no doubt develop over time

Ignorance lead to superstition and religion and god claims. Our species socializing is evolutionary regardless. Humans 200,000 years ago simply made bad guesses, and that lead to the grouping today we call religion. 

Other species form groups as well, group socializing is not unique to humans.

Evolution leads many species to seek patterns and form groups. The problem with humans back in pre historic times is that we had no modern knowledge. So when something around us, like a volcano, or storm, or even migration of our prey, had a positive or negative effect on us, we made the gap answer projection of our own qualities in super natural form as having an effect on that which was affecting us.

"Anthropomorphism" is the term for that. Gap filling with false perceptions you can even see in your pets. A dog or cat can see it's reflection in the mirror and mistake it for a separate animal and react to it's own reflection. Even my cat still acts like it has claws, even though I have had it declawed, it still tries to scratch furniture in a futile attempt to sharpen claws it does not have. It is why birds and deer can mistake a really clean window as not being there at all and run into it. 

Religion is NOT the foundation of humanity anymore than Santa is the foundation of Christmas. Religion is certainly part of our species history yes. But the thing that causes our grouping itself is evolution, and that is far older than our species. You can be successful as a society but still base that on false claims. The ancient Egyptians were successful for over 3,000 years grouping around the very false perception that a God named Ra controlled the sun.

I’m done feeding this one.

(December 18, 2018 at 7:05 am)Brian37 Wrote: Ignorance lead to superstition and religion and god claims. Our species socializing is evolutionary regardless. Humans 200,000 years ago simply made bad guesses, and that lead to the grouping today we call religion. 

Other species form groups as well, group socializing is not unique to humans.

Evolution leads many species to seek patterns and form groups. The problem with humans back in pre historic times is that we had no modern knowledge. So when something around us, like a volcano, or storm, or even migration of our prey, had a positive or negative effect on us, we made the gap answer projection of our own qualities in super natural form as having an effect on that which was affecting us.

"Anthropomorphism" is the term for that. Gap filling with false perceptions you can even see in your pets. A dog or cat can see it's reflection in the mirror and mistake it for a separate animal and react to it's own reflection. Even my cat still acts like it has claws, even though I have had it declawed, it still tries to scratch furniture in a futile attempt to sharpen claws it does not have. It is why birds and deer can mistake a really clean window as not being there at all and run into it. 

Religion is NOT the foundation of humanity anymore than Santa is the foundation of Christmas. Religion is certainly part of our species history yes. But the thing that causes our grouping itself is evolution, and that is far older than our species. You can be successful as a society but still base that on false claims. The ancient Egyptians were successful for over 3,000 years grouping around the very false perception that a God named Ra controlled the sun.

Brian37 this is gold. Im sorry if I missed any of ur posts b4.
This is food for thought, very good. Im shaking my head because iv watched so many docos on primates and watched their societies and I never equated religion to be simply a group.
I guess the thought of religion would bring up images of baboons doing the whole Islamic prayer thing. LoL.
But thats all it is in those days. A group

This was a counter theory I had in my mind. I imagined humans being in either a harem type of society against what I called the Gibbon style society which is the B37 theory.
The Gibbons are the closet thing to human society as far as im aware. I think  the harem society has a couple more things going for it, I'll tell u my reasons if u want.

Iv never been too comfortable with  "the need for a need of a sky daddy" theory. Ur very articulate. It sounds much nicer the way u say it. Im a crap writter sorry.

I came up with this  thought right now now. Why did they start religion? For war. I think war has been with man from day one, driven by resorces.
Religion would of been a great motivator. Maybe thats why. U induced this thought Brian37. I think it belongs in your theory. 

I saw "Anthropomorphism" and read your paragraph. But I had to look that up. LoL.
Ur basically explaining how the Christian god was made in mans form instead of the other way around i think

Can u please give me the definition u used for "humanity". There are a few even google has 2.
The Egyptians had a few Gods. U heard of Horice? The one with the eagle head. Theres a school of thought that Jesus was based on him.

"You can be successful as a society but still base that on false claims" Totally agree
Its what iv said a few times now but some people here will not entertain the thought.
Their just thoughts, theres no right or wrong. Only thoughts. The good ones are based on observable facts like this.

This Brian37 was a breath of fresh air. There are a couple of things that still make me lean to my harem theory i think. I'll tell u if u want
Only reason Im not putting them down now is because I don't want to sound negative towards ur theory. Its an excellent theory.

Oh i see ur videos now. LoL Brian37, "sky wizard". And I held u in such high regard... Hehehe just joking.
Im not a fan of that term. Its a purposly derogatory term designed to block discourse.

Yes it ultimately probably does come from what ur calling evolution.
Ultimately I said that religion was there at the start of civilization. So its a very similar thought process again B37
Not all people have the same morals but. Take any modern issue and there will be a divide. How do we decide what is law from that?

The role of religion in morality is to codify what the founders of a religion consider moral. It's sometimes an improvement on the general morals of the time and place the religion was birthed in. However, the codified morality necessarily becomes stagnant in the face of new moral discovery. In the broadest sense, our morality tends to advance. We came to realize that it's wrong to own another human being in hereditary bondage, for instance. This is a problem for people trying to base their morality on what codified over a thousand years before, if they treated their scriptures as the beginning and end of morality and they don't say anything against slavery.

If there is a Creator, the only work we can be sure it is the direct author of (by definition) is the universe. If you hold to scripture in the face of scientific discovery, an error has been made. If there is a Creator, scientists are the only ones truly studying what it is the author of. Scriptures are written by people, and demonstrably influenced by human bias, copy errors, and mistranslation; even if they really divinely inspired in the first place. The consistent theistic position would be to always trust the original manuscript (the universe) over information transmitted over centuries by humans for which all original manuscripts have been lost.

(December 17, 2018 at 3:31 pm)Agnostico Wrote: Briefly. Knowledge is ultimate. Then there is thought.
Belief holds little value to me.
Othere interesting topics like desire and off course morality are interesting to me at the moment
It's not an attack or criticism. It's just my mindset

Wen I was transitioning from catholic up bringing to atheism to agnosticism my focus was on the question of God.
I would see this topic of morality but found it hard to comprehend.
So I went over with my shovel and started digging. The surface was so hard so I gave up.

Next time I went with some hand tools. Chisels, sledge hammers, demo gear. I tried and tried to demolish the surface but made little impact. So I walked away.

Next time I went there with a jack hammer. Still nothing. I think I tried about 8 times to crack the surface. Each time using bigger equipment and more machinery.

Then one day while I was digging BANG. On of my excavators fell onto the ground. I cracked the surface. Underneath was softer sediment. Morality then opened up and became so intense to me that the God question sits back there somewhere now.

That's not an argument or criticism just an account of my struggle's with morality. Any thoughts welcomed and appreciated

What drugs are you taking and where can I get some?